From csieh at fnal.gov Wed Oct 1 07:45:20 2003 From: csieh at fnal.gov (csieh) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:45:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <20031001043734.GA20106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: A copyright has to stay as it indicates ownership. A trademarks use is up to the trademark owners decision and RedHat has already given direction on that. Connie Sieh On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Greg Kurtzer (greg at runlevelzero.net): > > > I realize that the code is GPL, but the name redhat is a trademark. I don't > > know if one takes precendent over the other, but it seems like the trademark > > should not be taken lightly. > > Because of the breadth of Red Hat, Inc.'s contributions, there are > already dozens of standard packages festooned with the string "Red Hat" > in just about _every_ Linux distribution. Consider sndconfig, for > example. The startup screen says: > > Sound Configuration Utility 0.70 > (C) 2000 Red Hat, Inc. > > The manpage includes: > > sndconfig sets up the necessary configuration files > to use a sound card on a Red Hat system. > > From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 1 09:34:09 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:34:09 -0700 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: References: <20031001043734.GA20106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20031001163409.GF32692@linuxmafia.com> Quoting csieh (csieh at fnal.gov): > A copyright has to stay as it indicates ownership. A clarification: Nothing actually requires a copyright notice (in the USA), at least not since March 1, 1989, when the USA fully transitioned into compliance with the Berne Convention. In any event, the point is that the phrase "Red Hat" in the market segment of Linux distributions _is_ a US registered trademark of Red Hat, Inc. They pay money to the USPTO to enjoy a limited monopoly over the brand identity associated with it, ten years at a stretch. And yet it should be obvious that they cannot enjoin its mere appearance (per se) in other distributions, if only because it appears all over software to which they've contributed. Please note that the example I cited mentioned has at least a couple of places the phrase occurs, not just the copyright notice. I quoted two. > A trademarks use is up to the trademark owners decision.... Not really. Please see: http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2003/08/14/trademarks.html http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/trademark-law -- Cheers, kill -9 them all. Rick Moen Let init sort it out. rick at linuxmafia.com From gotero at linuxprophet.com Wed Oct 1 09:44:27 2003 From: gotero at linuxprophet.com (Glen Otero) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:44:27 -0700 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <20031001163409.GF32692@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <858BC706-F42E-11D7-8A32-000393911A90@linuxprophet.com> On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:34 AM, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting csieh (csieh at fnal.gov): > >> A copyright has to stay as it indicates ownership. > > A clarification: Nothing actually requires a copyright notice (in the > USA), at least not since March 1, 1989, when the USA fully transitioned > into compliance with the Berne Convention. > > In any event, the point is that the phrase "Red Hat" in the market > segment of Linux distributions _is_ a US registered trademark of Red > Hat, Inc. They pay money to the USPTO to enjoy a limited monopoly over > the brand identity associated with it, ten years at a stretch. And yet > it should be obvious that they cannot enjoin its mere appearance (per > se) > in other distributions, if only because it appears all over software to > which they've contributed. Sorry, if this is a repeated question--I'm coming into this thread late. So if I understand the above correctly, then removal of Red Hat's trademarks and logos is required on a recompiled and redistributed RHEL, but changing the names of (or removing) packages like redhat-network-config (or whatever) isn't required? > > Please note that the example I cited mentioned has at least a couple of > places the phrase occurs, not just the copyright notice. I quoted two. > >> A trademarks use is up to the trademark owners decision.... > > Not really. Please see: > http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2003/08/14/trademarks.html > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/trademark-law > > -- > Cheers, kill -9 them all. > Rick Moen Let init sort it out. > rick at linuxmafia.com > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > Glen Otero, Ph.D. Linux Prophet 619.917.1772 From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 1 10:01:49 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:01:49 -0700 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <858BC706-F42E-11D7-8A32-000393911A90@linuxprophet.com> References: <20031001163409.GF32692@linuxmafia.com> <858BC706-F42E-11D7-8A32-000393911A90@linuxprophet.com> Message-ID: <20031001170149.GG32692@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Glen Otero (gotero at linuxprophet.com): > So if I understand the above correctly, then removal of Red Hat's > trademarks and logos is required on a recompiled and redistributed > RHEL.... I'd rather avoid the question of whether it's _required_, since, to my surprise, discussing the point of legal theory[1] caused some rather unpleasant discussion, a week or so back. I think/hope everyone agrees that it would be both prudent and also considerate to Red Hat, Inc. to yank out as much of that as possible. > ...but changing the names of (or removing) packages like > redhat-network-config (or whatever) isn't required? If it were, then would packages with the phrase "Red Hat" all over them be in just about every other Linux distribution? That was my point of a minute ago. Would you mind browsing those links I just posted, which concern the point that much-misunderstood trademark registration grants a limited monopoly is over a _brand identity_ (customer impression that the brand owner issues or endorses the goods) and cannot preclude mention per se of the registered mark? Those were: http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2003/08/14/trademarks.html http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/trademark-law [1] I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. -- Cheers, "In 1993, the World-Wide Web was an infosystem based on hypertext. Rick Moen In 1994, the World-Wide Web was an infosystem based on hype." rick at linuxmafia.com -- Lars Aronsson From csieh at fnal.gov Wed Oct 1 11:29:45 2003 From: csieh at fnal.gov (csieh) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:29:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <20031001163409.GF32692@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: I think that you do not have to include it for something to have a copyright but if there is "indication" of it then you surely cannot take it out. Connie Sieh On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting csieh (csieh at fnal.gov): > > > A copyright has to stay as it indicates ownership. > > A clarification: Nothing actually requires a copyright notice (in the > USA), at least not since March 1, 1989, when the USA fully transitioned > into compliance with the Berne Convention. > > In any event, the point is that the phrase "Red Hat" in the market > segment of Linux distributions _is_ a US registered trademark of Red > Hat, Inc. They pay money to the USPTO to enjoy a limited monopoly over > the brand identity associated with it, ten years at a stretch. And yet > it should be obvious that they cannot enjoin its mere appearance (per se) > in other distributions, if only because it appears all over software to > which they've contributed. > > Please note that the example I cited mentioned has at least a couple of > places the phrase occurs, not just the copyright notice. I quoted two. > > > A trademarks use is up to the trademark owners decision.... > > Not really. Please see: > http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2003/08/14/trademarks.html > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/trademark-law > > From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 1 11:38:25 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:38:25 -0700 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: References: <20031001163409.GF32692@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20031001183824.GI32692@linuxmafia.com> Quoting csieh (csieh at fnal.gov): > I think that you do not have to include it for something to have a > copyright but if there is "indication" of it then you surely cannot take > it out. Yes, it would guess it to be unlawful to strip a copyright notice -- though I can't offhand recall anything that specifically makes this so. (Reminder: I pointed out other mentions besides copyright notices.) -- This message falsely claims to have been scanned for viruses with F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange and to have been found clean. From mej at kainx.org Wed Oct 1 12:06:39 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 15:06:39 -0400 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <20031001040928.GB5747@titan.runlevelzero.net> References: <1064959495.25805.60.camel@opus> <3F6E3C04.1030308@it.swin.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20030929162342.0364f580@imap4.lbl.gov> <20030930045703.GB21853@titan.runlevelzero.net> <86smmeyy31.fsf@unicorn.wl0.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030929162342.0364f580@imap4.lbl.gov> <20030930234650.GB28527@kainx.org> <20031001040928.GB5747@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031001190639.GO130@kainx.org> On Tuesday, 30 September 2003, at 21:09:28 (-0700), Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Our build system is not complete, and I am very interested in > Mezzanine. I looked at the site a while ago, and there was not much > docs there. Can we schedule some time (phone or IRC) to talk about > it? I'll do my best. My schedule has reached the level of "morbidly obese" now, so I don't have much time to spend on non-work activities. But I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, Mezzanine does come with a FAQ. It's not much, but it's a start. I may have some old documentation from back at VA that might help, although it would most likely still refer to "Avalon[1]." > I agree with this, but I am still paranoid. Remember, it is not > about who is right or wrong it is about who has the best lawyers. I agree. But I'd be willing to bet that the FSF legal team would have a thing or two to say about RedHat restricting the right of anyone to use and redistribute GPL'd software. As long as it's still their code and their product, *they* are the ones using their trademark, not us. We're just exercising our rights under the GPL to redistribute in source and binary form. > I agree here 100%. This should be discussed further (risk Vs. benefit). Well, not to be Captain Obvious or anything...but has anyone actually asked RedHat what their stance is? :) Cheers, Michael [1] I named my build system Avalon long before the Apache Software Foundation named their project with the same name. Unfortunately, by the time I was able to release mine, theirs had already gotten name recognition. Thus, the Real Avalon(tm) became Mezzanine. -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Was your bad playing today due to ignorance or apathy?" "I don't know, and I don't care." -- Frank Layden and Jeff Wilkins, Utah Jazz Coach and Forward, respectively From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Oct 1 14:21:18 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:21:18 -0700 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <20031001190639.GO130@kainx.org> References: <1064959495.25805.60.camel@opus> <3F6E3C04.1030308@it.swin.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20030929162342.0364f580@imap4.lbl.gov> <20030930045703.GB21853@titan.runlevelzero.net> <86smmeyy31.fsf@unicorn.wl0.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030929162342.0364f580@imap4.lbl.gov> <20030930234650.GB28527@kainx.org> <20031001040928.GB5747@titan.runlevelzero.net> <20031001190639.GO130@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031001212118.GA20669@titan.runlevelzero.net> On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 03:06:39PM -0400, Michael Jennings told me: > Well, not to be Captain Obvious or anything...but has anyone actually > asked RedHat what their stance is? :) Ey-ey captain! ;) Actually, this is good advice. I have thought about it but I know the extents of my talents. Is there someone that can volunteer to write something up with the intent to send to RH legal? We can send it on behalf of the cAos-el team and not strictly the author. Volunteers please...? -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From jn at it.swin.edu.au Wed Oct 1 16:49:55 2003 From: jn at it.swin.edu.au (John Newbigin) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:49:55 +1000 Subject: [cAos] cAos] RHEL Support and compatiability - why In-Reply-To: <20031001212118.GA20669@titan.runlevelzero.net> References: <1064959495.25805.60.camel@opus> <3F6E3C04.1030308@it.swin.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20030929162342.0364f580@imap4.lbl.gov> <20030930045703.GB21853@titan.runlevelzero.net> <86smmeyy31.fsf@unicorn.wl0.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030929162342.0364f580@imap4.lbl.gov> <20030930234650.GB28527@kainx.org> <20031001040928.GB5747@titan.runlevelzero.net> <20031001190639.GO130@kainx.org> <20031001212118.GA20669@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <3F7B6823.6070609@it.swin.edu.au> Greg Kurtzer wrote: > On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 03:06:39PM -0400, Michael Jennings told me: > >>Well, not to be Captain Obvious or anything...but has anyone actually >>asked RedHat what their stance is? :) I don't want to cause a war, but hasn't Red Hat already stated exactly what must be changed (REDHAT-LOGOS and ANACONDA-IMAGES to remove "RED HAT" and the SHADOW MAN LOGO). The don't say "and replace every instance of the string "Red Hat" with something else. If you hound their legal department for info they have already provided I would think they won't want to respond well. They say on their web page to "consult *your* legal counsel". (You can however contact trademarks at redhat.com if you feel that someone is misusing their trademark...). Perhaps some real legal advice is required. Does the FSF have anyone who can look at things like this? John. > > > Ey-ey captain! ;) > > Actually, this is good advice. I have thought about it but I know the extents > of my talents. Is there someone that can volunteer to write something up with > the intent to send to RH legal? We can send it on behalf of the cAos-el team > and not strictly the author. > > Volunteers please...? -- Information Technology Innovation Group School of Information Technology Swinburne University of Technology Melbourne, Australia http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin From greg at runlevelzero.net Thu Oct 2 21:28:32 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:28:32 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Moving the site... Message-ID: <20031003042832.GA19501@titan.runlevelzero.net> FYI: The site and mail features are moving to another server. Mailing list posts can be sent to caos at runlevelzero.net until further notice. Please standby for further announcements, and please bear with us as we make this transition. Thanks! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Sat Oct 4 21:29:44 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:29:44 -0700 Subject: [cAos] what's in a name? Message-ID: <20031005042944.GB19616@titan.runlevelzero.net> Lance and I were talking about the reverse-cronym cAos, and other options for the 'A'. Please vote on the following names or offer suggestions: Community (Active, Advanced, Altruistic, Assembled, Aware) Operating System And for the RHEL-Rebuilt version, we have: cAos-(EL, Trek) (we are leaning toward Trek) Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From KillingAnfor at netscape.net Mon Oct 6 00:53:03 2003 From: KillingAnfor at netscape.net (KillingAnfor at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 03:53:03 -0400 Subject: [cAos] regarding name and slogan... Message-ID: <42BC8C27.336493BC.27192408@netscape.net> Hello friends, I was sick for a long time. I cannot contribute and do anything in this time. I'm so sorry :( But I'm here right now with my full force. Regarding 'A' letter, we can add "Act" and "Amity" too. Act is my favorite. Community Act Operating System. And I was thinking for slogan... We need a good slogan. I have one: "beyond the community". I'm thinking on other alternatives... And I'm working on some splash screens for GRUB and Gnome and some looks ;) Love to everyone from Turkey... Linux forever... Burak __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Oct 6 01:40:30 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:40:30 -0700 Subject: [cAos] regarding name and slogan... In-Reply-To: <42BC8C27.336493BC.27192408@netscape.net> References: <42BC8C27.336493BC.27192408@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20031006084030.GA16473@titan.runlevelzero.net> On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 03:53:03AM -0400, KillingAnfor at netscape.net told me: > Hello friends, > > I was sick for a long time. I cannot contribute and do anything in this time. I'm so sorry :( But I'm here right now with my full force. Regarding 'A' letter, we can add "Act" and "Amity" too. Act is my favorite. Community Act Operating System. Glad to hear your on the road to recovery! I did not think of Act. Any seconders? > And I was thinking for slogan... We need a good slogan. I have one: "beyond the community". I'm thinking on other alternatives... And I'm working on some splash screens for GRUB and Gnome and some looks ;) "cAos rules!"... Just a thought. I attached a grub splash that I just threw together for my laptop, and a large alien cAos logo to play with. -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cAos-grub.xpm.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 12659 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20031006/a0651e5f/attachment.gz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: caos3.png Type: image/png Size: 10734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20031006/a0651e5f/attachment.png From mej at kainx.org Tue Oct 7 07:09:57 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:09:57 -0400 Subject: [cAos] what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <20031005042944.GB19616@titan.runlevelzero.net> References: <20031005042944.GB19616@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031007140957.GY130@kainx.org> On Saturday, 04 October 2003, at 21:29:44 (-0700), Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Lance and I were talking about the reverse-cronym cAos, and other > options for the 'A'. Please vote on the following names or offer > suggestions: > > Community (Active, Advanced, Altruistic, Assembled, Aware) Operating System Alternative? Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Argue not with dragons, for thou art crunchy and go well with brie." -- Unknown From wsoyinka at lbl.gov Tue Oct 7 10:38:58 2003 From: wsoyinka at lbl.gov (Wale Soyinka) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:38:58 -0700 Subject: [cAos] what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <20031007140957.GY130@kainx.org> References: <20031005042944.GB19616@titan.runlevelzero.net> <20031007140957.GY130@kainx.org> Message-ID: <3F82FA32.1090903@lbl.gov> Hello All; I like the idea that Michael Jenning's "Alternative" connotes. I also wanted to add that we shouldn't forget that we can also use - recursive acronyms - e.g. as in GNU ( "GNU's Not Unix"). That way we will still have 3 letters to play around with; And contruct something meaningful/playful/serious/cool/naff/whatever/Linuxy.... Without thinking too much or too deeply - I came up with - cAos - "_cAos_ is an _alternative_ _Operating_ _System_" My 2 cents worth. Wale ******** Michael Jennings wrote: >On Saturday, 04 October 2003, at 21:29:44 (-0700), >Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > > >>Lance and I were talking about the reverse-cronym cAos, and other >>options for the 'A'. Please vote on the following names or offer >>suggestions: >> >>Community (Active, Advanced, Altruistic, Assembled, Aware) Operating System >> >> > >Alternative? > >Michael > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20031007/8b0cdb92/attachment.html From vossenjp at netaxs.com Tue Oct 7 12:43:56 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cAos] what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <20031007190001.4164.64260.Mailman@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:09:57 -0400 > From: Michael Jennings > To: caos at runlevelzero.net > Subject: Re: [cAos] what's in a name? > Reply-To: caos at runlevelzero.net > > On Saturday, 04 October 2003, at 21:29:44 (-0700), > Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > > Lance and I were talking about the reverse-cronym cAos, and other > > options for the 'A'. Please vote on the following names or offer > > suggestions: > > > > Community (Active, Advanced, Altruistic, Assembled, Aware) Operating System > > Alternative? I like that, or the recursive idea, but what about (sorry for any dups): Accessible Accommodating Accomplished Adopted Aggregated Approach Approved Asserted Assisted Assured Available I like these best: Community Accessible Operating System Community Assembled Operating System Even though I am a Geek and a Trekkie (or is that redundant?) this has me confushed a bit: cAos-(EL, Trek) (we are leaning toward Trek) Do we take whatever we come up with for cAos and tack on something that indicates enterprise or server-class suitability? How about: cAos-Server cAos-Enterprise (oh, is that the Trek thing? Subtle :) cAos-Stable cAos-SE (Server Edition, Server/Enterprise) cAos-LSFRH (Legally Swiped From Red Hat :) You know that there MUST be some related package (maybe the security meta-package or the update facility?) called Entropy, right? And there should probably be a related package or service called 'Heat Death' also. :-) Later, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From mej at kainx.org Tue Oct 7 14:22:22 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:22:22 -0400 Subject: [cAos] what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <3F82FA32.1090903@lbl.gov> References: <20031005042944.GB19616@titan.runlevelzero.net> <20031007140957.GY130@kainx.org> <3F82FA32.1090903@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <20031007212222.GL130@kainx.org> On Tuesday, 07 October 2003, at 10:38:58 (-0700), Wale Soyinka wrote: > I also wanted to add that we shouldn't forget that we can also use - > recursive acronyms - e.g. as in GNU ( "GNU's Not Unix"). Recursive acronyms are overused, IMHO. It was cool the first few times, but now it's just kinda old hat. Plus, I think keeping the word "community" in there is very important. Regards, Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold. Rich and poor have this in common: the Lord is Maker of them all." -- Proverbs 22:1-2 From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Oct 7 16:00:48 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:00:48 -0700 Subject: [cAos] what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: <20031007190001.4164.64260.Mailman@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031007230048.GC3721@runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 03:43:56PM -0400, JP Vossen told me: > I like that, or the recursive idea, but what about (sorry for any dups): > > Accessible > Accommodating > Accomplished > Adopted > Aggregated > Approach > Approved > Asserted > Assisted > Assured > Available I have an idea... Who is to say that the A can't mean many things? Maybe that was why it is in caps!!! :). > I like these best: > Community Accessible Operating System > Community Assembled Operating System I like those to, but the one that stood out for me in your list is Aggregated. So does several of the key A's not work for anyone? So to have your A included, just send me a quick note about which one(s) you like, and why you think they should be included. I will put together a page on all of the A's defined. > Do we take whatever we come up with for cAos and tack on something that > indicates enterprise or server-class suitability? How about: > cAos-Server > cAos-Enterprise (oh, is that the Trek thing? Subtle :) > cAos-Stable > cAos-SE (Server Edition, Server/Enterprise) > cAos-LSFRH (Legally Swiped From Red Hat :) Actually, I kinda like LSFRH but the implications scare me! ;) I want to stay away from anything that physically looks like Enterprise to keep a differention, and I don't like server because it implies that the standard cAos will not be suitable for servers. SE is nice. :) > You know that there MUST be some related package (maybe the security > meta-package or the update facility?) called Entropy, right? And there should > probably be a related package or service called 'Heat Death' also. :-) I was thinking the same thing, but heat-death-1.0-1.caos.src.rpm eluded me! Good call!! # yum install entropy Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Oct 8 07:56:57 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:56:57 -0700 Subject: [cAos] runlevelzero.net down today Message-ID: <20031008145657.GB32272@runlevelzero.net> While caosity.org has been moved, I have not yet moved the mailing list. There is a scheduled power outage for today, so the mailing list may be down (unless I get it transfered to caosity.org in time :). I will send an update if I do indeed get it transfered. Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Oct 8 17:32:04 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:32:04 -0700 Subject: [cAos] runlevelzero.net down today In-Reply-To: <20031008145657.GB32272@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031008145657.GB32272@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031009003204.GC976@runlevelzero.net> Runlevelzero.net is back up. Remember, this only applied to the mailing list. ;) Greg On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 07:56:57AM -0700, Greg Kurtzer told me: > While caosity.org has been moved, I have not yet moved the mailing list. There > is a scheduled power outage for today, so the mailing list may be down (unless > I get it transfered to caosity.org in time :). I will send an update if I do > indeed get it transfered. > > Greg > -- > Greg M. Kurtzer > http://runlevelzero.net/ > http://caosity.org/ > http://warewulf-cluster.org/ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Oct 13 21:38:10 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:38:10 -0700 Subject: [cAos] test... Message-ID: <20031014043809.GA27038@runlevelzero.net> This is a test email... please disregard. -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Oct 13 21:47:35 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:47:35 -0700 Subject: [cAos] new list server up... Message-ID: <20031014044735.GB27038@runlevelzero.net> All list traffic should now be directed to caos at caosity.org. -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Oct 13 22:48:59 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:48:59 -0700 Subject: [cAos] new list server up... In-Reply-To: <20031014044735.GB27038@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031014044735.GB27038@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031014054859.GU3713@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Greg Kurtzer (greg at runlevelzero.net): > All list traffic should now be directed to caos at caosity.org. But your post had: To: caos at caosity.org Reply-To: caos at runlevelzero.net -- Cheers, Accordions don't play Lady of Spain; Rick Moen _people_ play Lady of Spain. rick at linuxmafia.com From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Oct 14 07:34:43 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:34:43 -0700 Subject: [cAos] new list server up... In-Reply-To: <20031014054859.GU3713@linuxmafia.com> References: <20031014044735.GB27038@runlevelzero.net> <20031014054859.GU3713@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20031014143443.GA3198@runlevelzero.net> On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 10:48:59PM -0700, Rick Moen told me: > But your post had: > > To: caos at caosity.org > Reply-To: caos at runlevelzero.net Woops, right you are. Better now? -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Fri Oct 24 14:58:06 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:58:06 -0700 Subject: [cAos] First cAos screenshots!!! Message-ID: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> Here is cAos as a master node in a Warewulf cluster: http://warewulf-cluster.org/images/Screenshot-1.png http://warewulf-cluster.org/images/Screenshot-2.png Getting closer... -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From dpilon at dpilon.com Sun Oct 26 22:51:16 2003 From: dpilon at dpilon.com (Denis E. Pilon) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:51:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] itcl dif In-Reply-To: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <44684.192.168.0.15.1067237476.squirrel@mail.dpilon.com> Here is the diff for itcl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: itcl.diff Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20031027/9c3806f9/attachment.obj From websurfer at navegants.com Wed Oct 29 11:43:54 2003 From: websurfer at navegants.com (Josep M.) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:43:54 +0100 Subject: [cAos] First cAos screenshots!!! In-Reply-To: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031029204308.0269fe60@213.96.90.168> Hello. When will be isos available for download?X-DD Josep Begin of Quote Greg Kurtzer : >Here is cAos as a master node in a Warewulf cluster: > > http://warewulf-cluster.org/images/Screenshot-1.png > http://warewulf-cluster.org/images/Screenshot-2.png From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Oct 29 12:01:30 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:01:30 -0800 Subject: [cAos] First cAos screenshots!!! In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031029204308.0269fe60@213.96.90.168> References: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031029204308.0269fe60@213.96.90.168> Message-ID: <20031029200130.GA25050@runlevelzero.net> Which version are you interested? cAos-1 (my project) will probably have a network based installer and live ISO's by mid November. cAos-2 will be several weeks after the release of cAosEL-2. cAosEL-1 was never actually pressed into a distributable form, rather used just for internal building. cAosEL-2 may be in about 2-3 weeks (Rocky can speak more defiantly on this). Please keep in mind that these are projections, also known as guesses. If you want, you can install cAos-1 now (but you should be warned it is not streamlined yet, nor static. To test install: - install RHEL2 or a RHEL2-rebuild on a system with a minimal install - Add the following repository to the yum.conf: [cAos] name=cAos crazy repo baseurl=http://runlevelzero.net/greg/caosity/packages/cAos-1/i386/crazy/ - # yum upgrade - the yum command will bomb out because of conflicts. removing the offending packages from your rhel2 system, then do the upgrade again. - Soon I will have a meta package that will define a base cAos system via 'Requires: ' SPEC tags, but for now you should yum install everything that you want. caution: I have a new python which you will need to upgrade at the same time as yum. if you do not, then yum will stop working. :( Have fun, and please send feedback. BTW, the above temporary repository is not a fast connection. Please be nice and don't abuse or mirror it (yet). On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 08:43:54PM +0100, Josep M. told me: > Hello. > > When will be isos available for download?X-DD > > Josep > > > Begin of Quote Greg Kurtzer : > >Here is cAos as a master node in a Warewulf cluster: > > > > http://warewulf-cluster.org/images/Screenshot-1.png > > http://warewulf-cluster.org/images/Screenshot-2.png > > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From websurfer at navegants.com Wed Oct 29 14:10:15 2003 From: websurfer at navegants.com (Josep M.) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:10:15 -0100 Subject: [cAos] First cAos screenshots!!! In-Reply-To: <20031029200130.GA25050@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031024215806.GA30646@runlevelzero.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031029204308.0269fe60@213.96.90.168> <20031029200130.GA25050@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031029210452.026a5368@213.96.90.168> Hi1 I will be interested in cAos-2,You can be sure that I will download when will be available for test.I should learn about Yum,never used this before,I use autoupdate usually. Josep Begin of Quote Greg Kurtzer : >Which version are you interested? > >cAos-1 (my project) will probably have a network based installer and live ISO's >by mid November. > >cAos-2 will be several weeks after the release of cAosEL-2. > >cAosEL-1 was never actually pressed into a distributable form, rather used >just for internal building. > >cAosEL-2 may be in about 2-3 weeks (Rocky can speak more defiantly on this). > >Please keep in mind that these are projections, also known as guesses. > >If you want, you can install cAos-1 now (but you should be warned it is not >streamlined yet, nor static. To test install: > > - install RHEL2 or a RHEL2-rebuild on a system with a minimal install > - Add the following repository to the yum.conf: > [cAos] > name=cAos crazy repo > baseurl=http://runlevelzero.net/greg/caosity/packages/cAos-1/i386/crazy/ > - # yum upgrade > - the yum command will bomb out because of conflicts. removing the > offending packages from your rhel2 system, then do the upgrade again. > - Soon I will have a meta package that will define a base cAos system via > 'Requires: ' SPEC tags, but for now you should yum install everything > that you want. > > caution: I have a new python which you will need to upgrade at the same > time as yum. if you do not, then yum will stop working. :( > >Have fun, and please send feedback. BTW, the above temporary repository is not >a fast connection. Please be nice and don't abuse or mirror it (yet). From rocky at atipa.com Wed Oct 29 12:36:46 2003 From: rocky at atipa.com (Rocky McGaugh) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:36:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] First cAos screenshots!!! In-Reply-To: <20031029200130.GA25050@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > cAosEL-2 may be in about 2-3 weeks (Rocky can speak more defiantly on this). > > Please keep in mind that these are projections, also known as guesses. About 80% done with the first build. If there's no huge problems, I should have everything built && rebuilt towards the end of the week. Give me another week to replace the legals and rebuild installers and make CD's, and I should be able to put up a test release. Hopefully at this time people can compare it with RHEL3 and note any differences, especially in dependnacies. -- Rocky McGaugh From csieh at fnal.gov Wed Oct 29 12:56:05 2003 From: csieh at fnal.gov (csieh) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:56:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] First cAos screenshots!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rocky, Are you doing this yourself or do you have help. I am in the process of doing this work myself. Maybe we can help each other. I have rebuilt all the rpms from srpms with the exception of a couple. I have also made cd and dvd images of this. We are in the process of replacing the images and the logo's. -Connie Sieh On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Rocky McGaugh wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > > > > cAosEL-2 may be in about 2-3 weeks (Rocky can speak more defiantly on this). > > > > Please keep in mind that these are projections, also known as guesses. > > > About 80% done with the first build. If there's no huge problems, I should > have everything built && rebuilt towards the end of the week. Give me > another week to replace the legals and rebuild installers and make CD's, > and I should be able to put up a test release. > > Hopefully at this time people can compare it with RHEL3 and note any > differences, especially in dependnacies. > > > From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Oct 29 13:02:45 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:02:45 -0800 Subject: [cAos] SC2003 attendees... Message-ID: <20031029210245.GB26358@runlevelzero.net> Will the people that are planning on going to SC2003 please stand up. ;) Seriously, I think there is a handful of us and we should plan a dinner or event. Please respond with the date ranges you will be present. Greg Kurtzer: Nov 15-21 -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From jsquyres at osl.iu.edu Wed Oct 29 13:01:59 2003 From: jsquyres at osl.iu.edu (Jeff Squyres) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:01:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] SC2003 attendees... In-Reply-To: <20031029210245.GB26358@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031029210245.GB26358@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Greg Kurtzer: Nov 15-21 Jeff Squyres: Nov 16-21 (leaving morning of 21) I have no idea what my schedule will be like yet... -- {+} Jeff Squyres {+} jsquyres at osl.iu.edu {+} Research Associate, Open Systems Lab, Indiana University {+} http://www.osl.iu.edu/ From gotero at linuxprophet.com Wed Oct 29 13:13:34 2003 From: gotero at linuxprophet.com (Glen Otero) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:13:34 -0800 Subject: [cAos] SC2003 attendees... In-Reply-To: <20031029210245.GB26358@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: I'll be there the whole time. Glen On Wednesday, October 29, 2003, at 01:02 PM, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Will the people that are planning on going to SC2003 please stand up. > ;) > > Seriously, I think there is a handful of us and we should plan a > dinner or > event. > > Please respond with the date ranges you will be present. > > Greg Kurtzer: Nov 15-21 > -- > Greg M. Kurtzer > http://runlevelzero.net/ > http://caosity.org/ > http://warewulf-cluster.org/ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > Glen Otero, Ph.D. Linux Prophet 619.917.1772 From vossenjp at netaxs.com Thu Oct 30 08:25:52 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:25:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] cAos versions, names and other stuff Message-ID: I was thinking about cAos, Linux 2.6 and RHEL last night (before I saw Greg's recent status post). What does everyone think of this? cAos GP = General purpose, suitable for workstations and servers, based on Red Hat 9 cAos EL = Enterprise Linux, suitable for servers/large servers, based on RHEL 3 cAos SA = Security Appliance, suitable for hosting firewalls, IDS', etc. Based on a severely stripped RHEL 3 I'm a security guy and I spend some time doing firewalls and IDS's (snort). Red Hat's so-called "minimal" install was a start, but it STILL had way too much extra crap. A truly minimal install is one approach, but a hardened 1 CD version would be cool. Something like Check Point's SecurePlatform or one of the many "Linux Firewall on a CD" offerings out there. Obviously this would be a low priority item compared to getting the main versions out there. But once those are in place, 90% of the work has been done... My very hazy understanding of life cycle, updates and versions is that cAos is somewhere between Debian (with named releases but a floating package set) and Red Hat (with numbered releases with a defined package set and errata). Does anyone think it would be a good idea to use the kernel version as the cAos version? Thus we might have: cAos GP 2.4 = RH9 base, 2.4 kernel cAos GP 2.6 = RH9 base, 2.6 kernel etc. Otherwise, how will the 2.6 kernel fit in? I know I'm getting ahead of things, since even the 2.4 stuff is not quite released. :-) But the 2.6 buzz is building. On both a person and professional level, I need to migrate a bunch of machines from various older RH versions. If' I'm going to do that, I may as well move to 2.6 too. In my case I can wait a few more months for 2.6 to be official and settle down a bit... I was also wondering about the installer. I assume there are no plans to change Anaconda? The reason I ask is that when RH moved from the old version to the Python re-write with RH8, it went to hell from my perspective. I have had a LOT of really horrible problems getting RH8 and 9 to install on older hardware. I never had any issues like that with the 6.x or 7.x series. The basic problems are simply lockups and seemingly timeout issues, along with a smattering if random Python errors. In at least 2 cases I have been utterly unable to get RH8 or 9 to install on a machine, no matter what I do (CD, NFS, HTTP, FTP installs). More details if anyone cares. Finally, I can't remember if this has been covered, but will CPU Optimized packages (e.g. 586, 686) be addressed in any way at some later point? Either by the updater (yum?) or by facilitating local SRPM rebuilds or something? Later, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From greg at runlevelzero.net Thu Oct 30 13:46:20 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:46:20 -0800 Subject: [cAos] cAos versions, names and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031030214620.GB3200@runlevelzero.net> On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:25:52AM -0500, JP Vossen told me: > I was thinking about cAos, Linux 2.6 and RHEL last night (before I saw Greg's > recent status post). What does everyone think of this? > > cAos GP = General purpose, suitable for workstations and servers, based on Red > Hat 9 > cAos EL = Enterprise Linux, suitable for servers/large servers, based on RHEL > 3 > cAos SA = Security Appliance, suitable for hosting firewalls, IDS', etc. > Based on a severely stripped RHEL 3 I like. :) This is the first I thought about a 'SA' type solution. How large would the base be? Could it share the core of GP, and then the difference between SA and GP would be the extended packages? > I'm a security guy and I spend some time doing firewalls and IDS's (snort). > Red Hat's so-called "minimal" install was a start, but it STILL had way too > much extra crap. A truly minimal install is one approach, but a hardened 1 CD > version would be cool. Something like Check Point's SecurePlatform or one of > the many "Linux Firewall on a CD" offerings out there. Obviously this would > be a low priority item compared to getting the main versions out there. But > once those are in place, 90% of the work has been done... This sounds exactly like how I want to implement the repositories, and now you have given names to them. ;) There will be the core. This will be the packages needed for a minimal install. Now, when I think of minimal, I think 50-100Mb. No development tools, no locales, just a bare bones system (akin to what a cluster node may be). Then for GP I was thinking of having a different repository for the contribs, which is what will be open to the community to maintain. The core will be maintained by the core cAos developers. Now SA, can be another repository that leverages off the core base like GP (and soon the Warewulf Virtual Node File System). Is that in line with your thoughts? > My very hazy understanding of life cycle, updates and versions is that cAos is > somewhere between Debian (with named releases but a floating package set) and > Red Hat (with numbered releases with a defined package set and errata). Does > anyone think it would be a good idea to use the kernel version as the cAos > version? Thus we might have: > cAos GP 2.4 = RH9 base, 2.4 kernel > cAos GP 2.6 = RH9 base, 2.6 kernel > etc. I like the idea, but not sure how to implement this. Reason being that the major release is determined by not only the kernel, but also glibc and both of those are not in a synchronized release cycle. So if the kernel changes the minor version (2.4->2.6) every 2 years or so, we may end up with very slow release cycles because we are being held back. Maybe introduce another field? 2.x.y? Thoughts? > Otherwise, how will the 2.6 kernel fit in? I know I'm getting ahead of > things, since even the 2.4 stuff is not quite released. :-) But the 2.6 buzz > is building. On both a person and professional level, I need to migrate a > bunch of machines from various older RH versions. If' I'm going to do that, I > may as well move to 2.6 too. In my case I can wait a few more months for 2.6 > to be official and settle down a bit... Honestly, my opinions on RedHat's fork of the NPTL code are rather public. I really don't want to release cAos2 until the kernel is released with that built in. I have been playing with the 2.6test kernels, and test9 seems to compile the way that I want (have not tested booting yet :). Thus, I will release cAos2 with the 2.6 kernel so I don't have to play with RedHat's NPTL fork, yet still support it in user space. > I was also wondering about the installer. I assume there are no plans to > change Anaconda? The reason I ask is that when RH moved from the old version > to the Python re-write with RH8, it went to hell from my perspective. I have > had a LOT of really horrible problems getting RH8 and 9 to install on older > hardware. I never had any issues like that with the 6.x or 7.x series. The > basic problems are simply lockups and seemingly timeout issues, along with a > smattering if random Python errors. In at least 2 cases I have been utterly > unable to get RH8 or 9 to install on a machine, no matter what I do (CD, NFS, > HTTP, FTP installs). More details if anyone cares. Here are my thoughts on compilers... I see a real need for 2 types. The small floppy based network installer, and the live CDROM test/rescue/demo/installer. I offered to hack together the network installer, and Russ offered to maintain the ISO installer. We have a beta of the ISO installer working already and we will probably start building with cAos1 in the near future. The floppy network installer will actually be a bootstrapped partitioning/yum installer (with a hands free option like kickstart). This is actually pretty easy to do if you are comfortable with ramdisks and general boot hacking. The concept is simple: - boot on floppy - kernel has most network drivers compiled in - initrd loads - linuxrc gets system on network - linuxrc starts simple UI or reads config from file on the floppy:/ - linuxrc downloads stage2 installer and pushes in /dev/ram0 - linuxrc changes the real_root_dev to /dev/ram0 (255 I think) - pivot_root and boots stage 2 - stage 2 has scsi drivers (which can also be in stage1) fdisk/parted, python, and rpm - install script partitions, mounts, creates standard files (/etc/fstab) - selects package list - yum installs over the network - after install chroots to newroot - runs post configuration scripts - reboots I think I can do this on a floppy, but if there is anyone else interested in hacking please let me know. This will be a fun project, and it is also distribution neutral so it could be adopted elsewhere. I have had several people offer to play with anaconda as well, and if they build something that they wish to maintain that is great. My preference is that it is designed for RedHat, and is very complex. I don't want the installer to be a large focus of attention because it really should not be used more then once for the life of a system (best case scenario). > Finally, I can't remember if this has been covered, but will CPU Optimized > packages (e.g. 586, 686) be addressed in any way at some later point? Either > by the updater (yum?) or by facilitating local SRPM rebuilds or something? Yes it will be addressed, and it needs to be discussed further. I was thinking of compiling the following targets: i686 athlon x86_64 Is that reasonable? -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From rmcgaugh at atipa.com Thu Oct 30 15:32:10 2003 From: rmcgaugh at atipa.com (Rocky McGaugh) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:32:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] rhel3 package lists Message-ID: is there anyone with RHEL3 that can send me an "ls Redhat/RPMS" for x86, ia64, and x86_64? guess i need AS, ES, and WS too thanks -- Rocky McGaugh Atipa Technologies rocky at atipatechnologies.com rmcgaugh at atipa.com 1-785-841-9513 x3110 http://67.8450073/ perl -e 'print unpack(u, ".=W=W+F%T:7\!A+F-O;0H`");' From rocky at atipa.com Fri Oct 31 08:59:29 2003 From: rocky at atipa.com (Rocky McGaugh) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:59:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] Re: rhel3 package lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, i've gotten x86 AS so far, which will keep me busy for a bit. especially needed at this point would be x86_64 and ia64 AS listings. Thanks, -- Rocky McGaugh Atipa Technologies rocky at atipatechnologies.com rmcgaugh at atipa.com 1-785-841-9513 x3110 http://67.8450073/ perl -e 'print unpack(u, ".=W=W+F%T:7\!A+F-O;0H`");' On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Rocky McGaugh wrote: > > is there anyone with RHEL3 that can send me an "ls Redhat/RPMS" > for x86, ia64, and x86_64? > > guess i need AS, ES, and WS too > > thanks > > From greg at runlevelzero.net Fri Oct 31 22:06:08 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:06:08 -0800 Subject: [cAos] cAos versions, names and other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20031031120001.24203.57370.Mailman@caosity.caosity.org> Message-ID: <20031101060608.GB21770@runlevelzero.net> On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 07:11:27PM -0500, JP Vossen told me: > Small! The whole point is to have a VERY minimal system both in software > loaded on the machine and ideally in kernel config. NO compilers, telnet, > ftp, http, etc. Of course, the lack of a compiler requires a binary packager > like RPM. :-) Actually, maybe SA could just be the core repsitory itself. > Yes, perfect! The flexiblity of the update/repository architecture is > important herer, more in a bit. It looks (from more reading last night) that > Genntoo might have a handle on this. They have a bunch of different security > options, including the NSA SE Linux patches, the grsecurty patches, and > others. [0] Genntoo sounds really cool, but I have a lot invested in RPM and > Red Hat quirks... Also, I don't always have time to sit there for 72 hours > while the old 486 at my Mom's recompiles itself... Your mom runs Linux? Cool. > The 50K foot view of "hardening" is minimalism--have as few daemons, > privileges, modules, etc. as possible. Of special note is that it's a Bad > Idea to have compilers onboard--if the box does get hacked, the hacker can't > then download, *compile* and install a rootkit... > > 1) Have only what is absolutely NECESSARY: > 1.1 on the system > 1.2 in the kernel > 2) Optionally, have also security patches (kernel NSA SE, GR, etc.) and other > non-typical hardening features. > > The Gentoo roll your own approach is the only way to even attempt to provide > all things to all people in terms of custome kernel configs (i.e. #1.2). Any > reasonable sane package based installer should be able to handle #1.1. I > think cAos core could provide a great starting point for building security > devices. Those of us really paranoid people can then re-compile the kernel as > needed... Except for the no compiler thing... Catch-22. Hrmm... # yum install gcc # make bzImage # yum remove gcc ;) > My ultimate concept, similar the OpenBSD project [1], is to provide the most > secure Linux platform out of the box. On top of that very secure base (core) > you can build your firewall, your IDS, your security appliance OR you can add > the GP or EL packages as appropriate (with the understanding that each package > you add subtracts a little overall security). This needs cleanup and > marchitecture [sic], but that's the gist. > > It sounds like we already have an SA Phase 1 and it just needs to be > positioned and marketed in this context: > * VERY minimal set of packages (your "core" below) > * Ability to install new things (like Snort) with RPM W/O using a compiler > * Ideally, warnings about installing Really Stupid Things (like telnet, > tftp). Maybe a super-paranoid meta RPM? > > Phase 2 could be: > * Various different stripped kernel packages (SA repository? Not sure how > to do this) linux linux-smp linux-sec Maybe? > * Possibilities to roll your own (stripped) kernel > * Other stuff I'm forgetting > > > So maybe it's: > > cAos SA = cAos "core" and Security Appliance config > cAos GP = General Purpose (for wrkstons&servers, RH9 base) > cAos EL = Enterprise Linux (for servers, RHEL3 base) Don't forget the cAos cluster node distribution. ;) > This also begs the question about RHEL WS, ES and AS... Or, maybe not. Since > the taroon list is awash with people bitching about what is and is not > included in the RHEL flavors, maybe the installer can have a meta package > selector: > [ ] Custom > [ ] RHEL WS [ ] Show all options > [ ] RHEL ES [ ] Show all options > [ ] RHEL AS [ ] Show all options > This picks the "default" RHEL packages, then allow you to tweak, optionally > showing "WS" packages for selection into an "ES" default set, etc. I should specify something... When I mention repository, I don't actually mean different directories on the FTP server. I was thinking of a meta package similiar to how Debian uses task-packages ('apt-get install task-gnome', if I remember correctly). Thus 'yum install caos-gp'. The only different repository will be for cAos-EL. This will make choosing package groups at the command line or installer very easy. > PS--I cross posted your original message to Dell's Linux-PowerEdge and the > RHEL Rebuild lists [2]. I know... I had 2 people forward your mail to me from the Dell list. ;) Thanks! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From vossenjp at netaxs.com Fri Oct 31 16:11:27 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:11:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] cAos versions, names and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20031031120001.24203.57370.Mailman@caosity.caosity.org> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:46:20 -0800 > From: Greg Kurtzer > To: caos at caosity.org > Subject: Re: [cAos] cAos versions, names and other stuff > Reply-To: caos at caosity.org Sorry about the lag time--I get the digest AND my SPAM filter snagged it for some reason. THEN, work happened... :-( > On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:25:52AM -0500, JP Vossen told me: > > > > cAos GP = General purpose, suitable for workstations and servers, based on Red > > Hat 9 > > cAos EL = Enterprise Linux, suitable for servers/large servers, based on RHEL > > 3 > > cAos SA = Security Appliance, suitable for hosting firewalls, IDS', etc. > > Based on a severely stripped RHEL 3 > > I like. :) > > This is the first I thought about a 'SA' type solution. How large would the > base be? Small! The whole point is to have a VERY minimal system both in software loaded on the machine and ideally in kernel config. NO compilers, telnet, ftp, http, etc. Of course, the lack of a compiler requires a binary packager like RPM. :-) > Could it share the core of GP, and then the difference between SA and > GP would be the extended packages? Yes, perfect! The flexiblity of the update/repository architecture is important herer, more in a bit. It looks (from more reading last night) that Genntoo might have a handle on this. They have a bunch of different security options, including the NSA SE Linux patches, the grsecurty patches, and others. [0] Genntoo sounds really cool, but I have a lot invested in RPM and Red Hat quirks... Also, I don't always have time to sit there for 72 hours while the old 486 at my Mom's recompiles itself... The 50K foot view of "hardening" is minimalism--have as few daemons, privileges, modules, etc. as possible. Of special note is that it's a Bad Idea to have compilers onboard--if the box does get hacked, the hacker can't then download, *compile* and install a rootkit... 1) Have only what is absolutely NECESSARY: 1.1 on the system 1.2 in the kernel 2) Optionally, have also security patches (kernel NSA SE, GR, etc.) and other non-typical hardening features. The Gentoo roll your own approach is the only way to even attempt to provide all things to all people in terms of custome kernel configs (i.e. #1.2). Any reasonable sane package based installer should be able to handle #1.1. I think cAos core could provide a great starting point for building security devices. Those of us really paranoid people can then re-compile the kernel as needed... Except for the no compiler thing... Catch-22. My ultimate concept, similar the OpenBSD project [1], is to provide the most secure Linux platform out of the box. On top of that very secure base (core) you can build your firewall, your IDS, your security appliance OR you can add the GP or EL packages as appropriate (with the understanding that each package you add subtracts a little overall security). This needs cleanup and marchitecture [sic], but that's the gist. It sounds like we already have an SA Phase 1 and it just needs to be positioned and marketed in this context: * VERY minimal set of packages (your "core" below) * Ability to install new things (like Snort) with RPM W/O using a compiler * Ideally, warnings about installing Really Stupid Things (like telnet, tftp). Maybe a super-paranoid meta RPM? Phase 2 could be: * Various different stripped kernel packages (SA repository? Not sure how to do this) * Possibilities to roll your own (stripped) kernel * Other stuff I'm forgetting So maybe it's: cAos SA = cAos "core" and Security Appliance config cAos GP = General Purpose (for wrkstons&servers, RH9 base) cAos EL = Enterprise Linux (for servers, RHEL3 base) This also begs the question about RHEL WS, ES and AS... Or, maybe not. Since the taroon list is awash with people bitching about what is and is not included in the RHEL flavors, maybe the installer can have a meta package selector: [ ] Custom [ ] RHEL WS [ ] Show all options [ ] RHEL ES [ ] Show all options [ ] RHEL AS [ ] Show all options This picks the "default" RHEL packages, then allow you to tweak, optionally showing "WS" packages for selection into an "ES" default set, etc. > This sounds exactly like how I want to implement the repositories, and now > you have given names to them. ;) Cool! > There will be the core. This will be the packages needed for a minimal > install. Now, when I think of minimal, I think 50-100Mb. No development > tools, no locales, just a bare bones system (akin to what a cluster node > may be). Then for GP I was thinking of having a different repository for > the contribs, which is what will be open to the community to maintain. The > core will be maintained by the core cAos developers. > > Now SA, can be another repository that leverages off the core base like GP > (and soon the Warewulf Virtual Node File System). > > Is that in line with your thoughts? It's actually a refinement of my thoughts. :-) I'd originally thought SA would be a separate flavor of the distro, but using it as the core is much better and simplifies the parts that the repository has to deal with into: Potentially lots of possible kernel configs Potentially a small number of supported security apps Snort (I co-maintain the Snort.org RPMs :) Other stuff > > My very hazy understanding of life cycle, updates and versions is that cAos is > > somewhere between Debian (with named releases but a floating package set) and > > Red Hat (with numbered releases with a defined package set and errata). Does > > anyone think it would be a good idea to use the kernel version as the cAos > > version? Thus we might have: > > cAos GP 2.4 = RH9 base, 2.4 kernel > > cAos GP 2.6 = RH9 base, 2.6 kernel > > etc. > > I like the idea, but not sure how to implement this. Reason being that the > major release is determined by not only the kernel, but also glibc and both of > those are not in a synchronized release cycle. So if the kernel changes the > minor version (2.4->2.6) every 2 years or so, we may end up with very slow > release cycles because we are being held back. Yeah, I know... :-/ I was shooting in the dark... > Maybe introduce another field? 2.x.y? I guess we do need to think about this some more. > Honestly, my opinions on RedHat's fork of the NPTL code are rather public. I > really don't want to release cAos2 until the kernel is released with that > built in. I have been playing with the 2.6test kernels, and test9 seems to > compile the way that I want (have not tested booting yet :). Thus, I will > release cAos2 with the 2.6 kernel so I don't have to play with RedHat's NPTL > fork, yet still support it in user space. Perfect! > > I was also wondering about the installer. I assume there are no plans to > > change Anaconda? The reason I ask is that when RH moved from the old version > > to the Python re-write with RH8, it went to hell from my perspective. I have > > had a LOT of really horrible problems getting RH8 and 9 to install on older > > hardware. I never had any issues like that with the 6.x or 7.x series. The > > basic problems are simply lockups and seemingly timeout issues, along with a > > smattering if random Python errors. In at least 2 cases I have been utterly > > unable to get RH8 or 9 to install on a machine, no matter what I do (CD, NFS, > > HTTP, FTP installs). More details if anyone cares. > > I see a real need for 2 types. The small floppy based network installer, > and the live CDROM test/rescue/demo/installer. I offered to hack together > the network installer, and Russ offered to maintain the ISO installer. We > have a beta of the ISO installer working already and we will probably > start building with cAos1 in the near future. So NOT anaconda/phython/unstable? :-) > I have had several people offer to play with anaconda as well, and if they > build something that they wish to maintain that is great. My preference is > that it is designed for RedHat, and is very complex. I don't want the > installer to be a large focus of attention because it really should not be > used more then once for the life of a system (best case scenario). Well, yeah. The best case is that I can install the damn thing on the old crappy hardware I still use. This has NOT been the case since RH8. :-( > > Finally, I can't remember if this has been covered, but will CPU Optimized > > packages (e.g. 586, 686) be addressed in any way at some later point? Either > > by the updater (yum?) or by facilitating local SRPM rebuilds or something? > > Yes it will be addressed, and it needs to be discussed further. I was thinking > of compiling the following targets: > > i686 > athlon > x86_64 > > Is that reasonable? Probably. I was just shooting for the moon at this point. Goes back to the repository flexibility question and Gentoo again. Later, JP PS--I cross posted your original message to Dell's Linux-PowerEdge and the RHEL Rebuild lists [2]. [0] See selinux-sources, rsbac-sources, etc.: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-kernel.xml http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/ [1] http://www.openbsd.org/ [2] http://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge http://www2.uibk.ac.at/zid/software/unix/linux/rhel-rebuild-l.html ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From vossenjp at netaxs.com Fri Oct 31 22:58:30 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:58:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] cAos versions, names and other stuff In-Reply-To: <20031101060608.GB21770@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > Also, I don't always have time to sit there for 72 hours > > while the old 486 at my Mom's recompiles itself... > > Your mom runs Linux? Cool. Well, she doesn't KNOW she does. But the server in the back room running Samba, DNS, DHCP, etc. is Red Hat. > > Those of us really paranoid people can then re-compile the kernel as > > needed... Except for the no compiler thing... Catch-22. > > Hrmm... > > # yum install gcc > # make bzImage > # yum remove gcc Well if you want to get TECHNICAL about it. ;-) Seriously though, I had not thought through the fact that it IS that easy. Have to think about that some more. On one hand, if there is no compiler the bad guy can always use an RPM or pre-compiled binary or what you just said. OTOH, a lot of security is about layers... Interesting food for thought. > linux > linux-smp > linux-sec That's a start. I would not be surprised to find that various of the security patches conflict with each other, so I suspect it can/will get messy. > I should specify something... When I mention repository, I don't actually mean > different directories on the FTP server. I was thinking of a meta package > similiar to how Debian uses task-packages ('apt-get install task-gnome', if I > remember correctly). Thus 'yum install caos-gp'. I'm not familiar with Debian task-packages, but I think I get the point. That sounds reasonable, assuming there is a way to get more granular if you want to. Later, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable?