From oscar.valdez at plastipak.com.sv Sat Nov 1 08:13:04 2003 From: oscar.valdez at plastipak.com.sv (Oscar A. Valdez) Date: 01 Nov 2003 10:13:04 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL 3.0 or Fedora for a 'production environment' ? Message-ID: <1067703185.1187.71.camel@wzowski> I've been trying to digest the bifurcation of Red Hat Linux into two different releases. For personal and home use, Fedora is the logical choice. But for my 50 servers and desktops at work, I have allowed myself to be victimized by FUD (ie, Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). I've followed discussions on rebuilding a distribution from RHEL 3.0 source RPMs (see http://www.mail-archive.com/rhel-rebuild-l at uibk.ac.at or http://caosity.org/pipermail/caos), and they are riddled with doubts about the legality of doing so. And then: "Red Hat Enterprise Linux creates a reliable, secure, high performance platform designed for today's commercial environments--with capabilities that match or surpass those of proprietary operating systems." Does this statement from Red Hat mean that I can't get the same from Fedora? I don't think so. As long as Fedora provides stable, compatible packages, bug and security fixes and upgrades, I think I can live with it in my 'production environment' Anyone care to comment? -- Oscar A. Valdez From greg at runlevelzero.net Sun Nov 2 08:20:46 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:20:46 -0800 Subject: [cAos] new mailing lists... Message-ID: <20031102162046.GA23411@runlevelzero.net> I created some new mailing lists... Check out http://caosity.org/mailman/listinfo to see if something interests you. Let me know if you have any other ideas. -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 4 23:10:21 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:10:21 -0800 Subject: [cAos] status... Message-ID: <20031105071021.GA26201@runlevelzero.net> It was suggested that some of the core developers send status notes to the list to keep people informed... cAos-GP: We have the foundation of the distro done, but now we are resolving self hosting build issues. for example, we start with RHEL2 rebuild, and then compile a package X. Then we upgrade packages A, B, and C which breaks the ability to compile package X. First pass left about 25 packages uncompiled. Presently I have gotten about 15 of them to build, so the last 10 should be done in the next day or so. At that point we will start another full OS build. Lastly, there are two major packages that are holding us up. These are gcc3 and rpm-4.2. rpm is dependent on gcc3, and gcc3 is just a major pain. ;) Thanks to Denis and Russ for all their work and help on this. When we get the final packages built and we are totally self hosting, I will start on the network installer prototypes, and make the repositories public. Lastly, we really need help maintaining the web site and posting content. Much of this task is just watching the mailing lists and IRC and posting relevant content. This is really needed, and any help would be GREATLY appreciated! We have recently had some FAQ posts, but need a volunteer to be the primary content maintainer. Please speak up if you can help and have a knack for documentation! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From herrold at owlriver.com Wed Nov 5 00:11:10 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 03:11:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] status... In-Reply-To: <20031105071021.GA26201@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031105071021.GA26201@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > It was suggested that some of the core developers send status notes to the > list to keep people informed... > Lastly, there are two major packages that are holding us up. These are gcc3 > and rpm-4.2. rpm is dependent on gcc3, and gcc3 is just a major pain. ;) > Thanks to Denis and Russ for all their work and help on this. Happy news -- A gcc3 has been compiled by both Dennis and I within the last half hour (although there are some conflict in packaging issues to resolve, and the suggestion of a funtionality issue) I have folded the result binaries into my buildsystem, and it is cranking through packages. For those interested in following along on the buildsystem development, ORCyum-chroot and ORCbuildit-wip located at: ftp://ftp.owlriver.com/pub/local/ORC/buildfarm/ are able to genereate a clean chroot build environment, and manage 'on the fly' installation of BuildRequires, on a per package basis. -wip will be promoted with a new version number, probably tomorrow. There has been great reticence in exposing buildsystem details -- it seems a lot like the apocryphal quote about the making of sausage and the operation of a Legislature: "The less you know about the process the more you respect the result." There is an internal roadmap callout, and while I am indebted to the suggestions of others, all errors remain my own. Standard warnings apply. Do NOT use on a host containing data you cannot afford to lose at a moment's notice. Please consider trying it out, writing notes, and sending feedback so I can improve it. -- Russ Herrold From roger at infomed.sld.cu Fri Nov 7 12:50:31 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:50:31 -0500 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL Message-ID: <1068238231.3fac05978c33c@webmail.sld.cu> hi sorry because maybe this is an offtopic but it looks that this is the only community that rebuild the RHEL so here i think i will get good tips i rebuild all the rpms from the rhel but,always is "but" ;-(, i have some problems with libredhat-kernel.so.1 file and with dietlibc package my problems are: 1- libredhat-kernel.so.1 came inside libaio and kernels packages but is only "advertise" with kernel-smp, kernel-boot, kernel-summit and kernel-enterprise 2- only libaio package put the libredhat-kernel.so.1 file in /lib directory the other put in /lib/kernel/(uname -r)/ directory (maybe because rc.sysinit should make the link and run ldconfig) 3- the file insmod.static make a segmentation fault when compiled with dietlibc this implied that the system can't upload any modules at boot time (no scsi or ext3 at boot time) my question are: do you have this problems too? if yes, what is the workaround? i have some ideas but i would like to hear from all of you first thanks a lot for any coments roger PD1: our final objetive is to migrate our rhl-7.2 to this "distro" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From lance at uklinux.net Sat Nov 8 03:20:44 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:20:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] irc logs Message-ID: In case anyone is interested I've added 'raw' irc logs for the last couple of months to the caosity website. http://www.caosity.org/irclogs also linked from the main menu. Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From greg at runlevelzero.net Sun Nov 9 01:42:43 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 01:42:43 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Anaconda people... Message-ID: <20031109094243.GB27572@runlevelzero.net> There were several people on the list that mentioned to me that they could hack anaconda, and would be interested in helping to port it to cAos. we are just about ready for that, so would those original volunteers please stand up. ;) Thanks, Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From jn at it.swin.edu.au Sun Nov 9 14:27:35 2003 From: jn at it.swin.edu.au (John Newbigin) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:27:35 +1100 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL In-Reply-To: <1068238231.3fac05978c33c@webmail.sld.cu> References: <1068238231.3fac05978c33c@webmail.sld.cu> Message-ID: <3FAEBF57.9050605@it.swin.edu.au> I assume you are using 2.1AS libaio-0.3.92-1.src.rpm is only for ia64. There are a few updates which only apply to certain archs. The following is my list of ia64 packages which I exclude: kernel-2.4.18* elilo* mkinitrd-3.4.24-0.ia64.2.src.rpm libaio-0.3.92-1.src.rpm I recommend that you don't include any updates in your distribution. It takes longer to patch once you install but I found it was much more reliable. John. Roger Pe?a Escobio wrote: > hi > > sorry because maybe this is an offtopic but it looks that this is the only community that > rebuild the RHEL so here i think i will get good tips > > i rebuild all the rpms from the rhel but,always is "but" ;-(, i have some problems with > libredhat-kernel.so.1 file and with dietlibc package > > my problems are: > 1- libredhat-kernel.so.1 came inside libaio and kernels packages but is only "advertise" > with kernel-smp, kernel-boot, kernel-summit and kernel-enterprise > 2- only libaio package put the libredhat-kernel.so.1 file in /lib directory the other put > in /lib/kernel/(uname -r)/ directory (maybe because rc.sysinit should make the link and > run ldconfig) > > 3- the file insmod.static make a segmentation fault when compiled with dietlibc this > implied that the system can't upload any modules at boot time (no scsi or ext3 at boot time) > > my question are: > do you have this problems too? if yes, what is the workaround? > i have some ideas but i would like to hear from all of you first > > thanks a lot for any coments > > roger > PD1: our final objetive is to migrate our rhl-7.2 to this "distro" > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) > Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) > Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed > http://webmail.sld.cu > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > > -- Information Technology Innovation Group School of Information Technology Swinburne University of Technology Melbourne, Australia http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin From mej at kainx.org Mon Nov 10 13:06:53 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:06:53 -0500 Subject: [cAos] FHS 2.3 In-Reply-To: <16302.56284.934488.193679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16302.56284.934488.193679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20031110210653.GA14169@kainx.org> On Monday, 10 November 2003, at 11:29:16 (+1100), Christopher Yeoh wrote: > The File Hierarchy Standard is being updated. A couple of the > proposed changes are proving to be fairly controversial: > > Addition of /srv: > > http://bugs.freestandards.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16 > > Addition of /media: > > http://bugs.freestandards.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=27 > > Some feedback on what people here think would be useful. > > You can download the whole document here: > > http://www.samba.org/~cyeoh/fhs-2.3-beta3.pdf > > The FHS mailing list and archive is here: > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freestandards-fhs-discuss The /srv hierarchy is a good idea. It's true that we don't have a good place for system-local non-transient data. /media, however, sucks rock. The right place for this is /mnt, "much older tradition" be damned. Much older tradition is how we got ourselves in this whole mess in the first place. If a temporary mount point is needed, it should be created and mounted under /tmp_mnt or /tmp/. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Who needs women? Give me gcc and a couple megs of source code, and I'm good for at least an hour or so...." From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Nov 10 23:45:42 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:45:42 -0800 Subject: [cAos] STATUS: floppy based installer... Message-ID: <20031111074542.GA26032@runlevelzero.net> I just finished a prototype install of cAos using a network based floppy installer that uses yum to install. The floppy is distribution neutral and should work with _any_ yum repository. For now I am calling it 'ciner' (pronounced as sinner) for "Caos INstallER" (unless anyone else has a suggestion). I will be hammering a bit more out of it, and will release shortly. I am guessing that within a week we will see the first installable beta release of cAos. Also, Lance did some very nice work getting python and yum to work in a _very_ small footprint. Thanks! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From vossenjp at netaxs.com Tue Nov 11 07:52:01 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:52:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] STATUS: floppy based installer... In-Reply-To: <20031111120001.13191.9019.Mailman@caos> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:45:42 -0800 > From: Greg Kurtzer > To: caos at caosity.org > Subject: [cAos] STATUS: floppy based installer... > Reply-To: caos at caosity.org > > I just finished a prototype install of cAos using a network based floppy > installer that uses yum to install. The floppy is distribution neutral and > should work with _any_ yum repository. For now I am calling it 'ciner' > (pronounced as sinner) for "Caos INstallER" (unless anyone else has a > suggestion). If you've already used entrophy and heat death for other things, I suggest Butterfly. The "Butterfly Effect" is a characteristic of chaotic systems (such as the weather). Thus, a small change--installing cAos--can have a large impact later--presumably more stability, happier admins, etc. :-) http://order.ph.utexas.edu/chaos/manifestations.html#panel13 '[...]the "Butterfly Effect." In terms of weather forecasts, the "Butterfly Effect" refers to the idea that whether or not a butterfly flaps its wings in a certain part of the world can make the difference in whether or not a storm arises one year later on the other side of the world.' > I am guessing that within a week we will see the first installable beta > release of cAos. Cool! Later, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From vossenjp at netaxs.com Tue Nov 11 07:54:48 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:54:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Google rank Message-ID: Hit send too fast on my last message. I meant to mention that cAos is #4 out of 623,000 hits for "caos" on Google (at least in the US)! Later, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 08:34:56 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:34:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Google rank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, JP Vossen wrote: > Hit send too fast on my last message. I meant to mention that cAos is #4 out > of 623,000 hits for "caos" on Google (at least in the US)! Good ways to increase that include: * Make mention of cAos on /. and other popular geek hangouts. * Make mention of it in your blog, or in talkbacks on other blogs. * Make sure that your hyperlink encases the word "cAos" to further cement the association. So do something like: cAos I'm going to do a little bit of score improving for the cAos site tonight. Please try a couple yourself to further ensure that cAosity.org becomes #1 for the search term "cAos". From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 10:58:43 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:58:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Google rank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow what great timing. Here is your prime opportunity to steer people to cAos instead of Debian. I think we're closer to the prize than the Debian folks, given the great Enterprise integration tools in RHEL. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/11/1352230 From mej at kainx.org Tue Nov 11 11:02:33 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:02:33 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues Message-ID: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/11/10/HNredhatbalk_1.html Where does this leave us? Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry. Like a bird upon the wind, these waters are my sky. I'll never reach my destination if I never try, so I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry." -- Garth Brooks, "The River" From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 11:10:35 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:10:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Michael Jennings wrote: > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/11/10/HNredhatbalk_1.html > > Where does this leave us? It changes nothing. I don't see any new issues being raised in this article that we didn't know of a week ago. Red Hat's own announcement was the shot heard round the world (even if it wasn't news to us geeks, our managers all paid attention to their more recent announcement of cutting support for RHL). All these articles will do is drive more people to cAos and similar ventures. From mej at kainx.org Tue Nov 11 11:16:58 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:16:58 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 14:10:35 (-0500), Chris Hedemark wrote: > It changes nothing. I don't see any new issues being raised in this > article that we didn't know of a week ago. Red Hat's own > announcement was the shot heard round the world (even if it wasn't > news to us geeks, our managers all paid attention to their more > recent announcement of cutting support for RHL). We return to the question of, "Can we use RHEL as the base for cAos without getting ourselves into licensing problems?" Furthermore, if RedHat plans to forbid the copying of RHEL between machines, how certain are we that the entirety of RHEL will still be available for download? > All these articles will do is drive more people to cAos and similar > ventures. I agree...which is why we need to make sure we're ready for them. :-) Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Learn to enjoy your own company. You are the one person you can count on living with for the rest of your life." -- Ann Richards From sinner at escomposlinux.org Tue Nov 11 11:44:38 2003 From: sinner at escomposlinux.org (Sinner from the Prairy) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:44:38 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311111444.41267.sinner@escomposlinux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 11 November 2003 02:10 pm, Chris Hedemark wrote: > All these articles will do is drive more people to cAos and similar > ventures I'm spreading the word among the Spanish-speaking public about cAos. I expect to show the way, ascAos is a distribution by sysadmins for sysadmins. And many (we) like that. Salut, Sinner - -- Visit my website! http://www.ibiblio.org/sinner/ Running on Mandrake Linux 9.0 - Kernel 2.4.19smp Linux User # 89976 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/sTwoSGQa4/zQ9e8RAl/4AKCT/KRYLZBi9UbA9nBzvtJXU5tSsQCfSMQt ETqtbr8R/7Y6IlFpaeEfRhU= =WYWY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 11:45:59 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:45:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Michael Jennings wrote: > We return to the question of, "Can we use RHEL as the base for cAos > without getting ourselves into licensing problems?" Yes. The software we're repackaging is bound by the conditions of the GPL or other mostly OSI-approved licenses. Red Hat's own creations like rpm and anaconda are also distributed as free software. Basically, we can't copy their ISO's and we can't use their binary RPM's. We can repackage our own binary RPM's from their SRPM's and it is completely legit. Folks inside of RHAT are well aware of this project and don't really have anything they can do, such is the nature of Free Software. > Furthermore, if RedHat plans to forbid the copying of RHEL between > machines, how certain are we that the entirety of RHEL will still be > available for download? Moot point; we have the source now, we're forking, and once we're forked we're free to maintain our own distribution. > I agree...which is why we need to make sure we're ready for them. :-) We're not (ready, that is), but that's precisely why we need volunteers. I suck at web page design. But I'm not bad at some other things. Right now I'm taking evangelism as a mission to scare up volunteers, increase community awareness of our project and as mentioned earlier make the search engines find our little project. I do this because I have tried doing the packaging and I'm just hardware-poor right now. Keep running out of HDD space, and as a father of two I won't be buying any new hardware until at least post-Christmas. Obviously we need programmers, packagers, etc. We clearly also need someone to take ownership of the web site. And if we want to be taken seriously we'll need documentation, as well. When we get into maintenance we'll need responsible people to take ownership of components of cAos. Are you a KDE lover? How about assuming ongoing responsibility for the KDE packages & integration. Or maybe Anaconda is your thing and you'll work on maintaining & improving the installer. And did I mention docs? From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 11:48:08 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:48:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <200311111444.41267.sinner@escomposlinux.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Sinner from the Prairy wrote: > I'm spreading the word among the Spanish-speaking public about cAos. You rock, Sinner. > I expect to show the way, ascAos is a distribution by sysadmins for sysadmins. > And many (we) like that. The way I've been pitching it is more or less calling cAos-el (understanding gp is a different matter) "Enterprise Linux with a Debian-esque social contract". From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 11 12:28:10 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:28:10 -0800 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111202810.GA3582@runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 02:45:59PM -0500, Chris Hedemark told me: > We're not (ready, that is), but that's precisely why we need volunteers. > I suck at web page design. But I'm not bad at some other things. Right > now I'm taking evangelism as a mission to scare up volunteers, increase > community awareness of our project and as mentioned earlier make the > search engines find our little project. > > I do this because I have tried doing the packaging and I'm just > hardware-poor right now. Keep running out of HDD space, and as a father > of two I won't be buying any new hardware until at least post-Christmas. > > Obviously we need programmers, packagers, etc. We clearly also need > someone to take ownership of the web site. And if we want to be taken > seriously we'll need documentation, as well. > > When we get into maintenance we'll need responsible people to take > ownership of components of cAos. Are you a KDE lover? How about assuming > ongoing responsibility for the KDE packages & integration. Or maybe > Anaconda is your thing and you'll work on maintaining & improving the > installer. And did I mention docs? I think that you hit the nail on the head! Right now, it is a farily small group doing the core OS, but we need much more then that. Seriously, I got several replies regarding someone taking over content management on the site, but nobody that just came out and said "I WANT the responsiability!" which is what we need. The job does not require php, or even shell access to the server, and it has a nice administrative HTML based interface for managing _all_ content. People that want to do PHP or backend coding is also needed. I will post a needed positions section of the site in the next few days (yes, I have said this before). Some roles will include package maintainers (will need a lot of these), PHP programmers, documentation people, support people to help on user mailing lists, core OS programmers, etc... Thanks! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 12:30:04 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:30:04 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> References: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111143004.12l2nsw48wg0osg4@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Michael Jennings : > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/11/10/HNredhatbalk_1.html > > Where does this leave us? Huh? It changes nothing. Nothing new in there... > Michael Eric From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 11 12:33:38 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:33:38 -0800 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: <200311111444.41267.sinner@escomposlinux.org> Message-ID: <20031111203338.GB3582@runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 02:48:08PM -0500, Chris Hedemark told me: > The way I've been pitching it is more or less calling cAos-el > (understanding gp is a different matter) "Enterprise Linux with a > Debian-esque social contract". caos-el is the rebuilt rhel using the oss packages srpms in rhel. caos-gp uses only a minimal caos-el core, and the rest is community contributions debian style. We definatly someone to take charge of managing this on the site... volunteers? ;) Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 12:36:00 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:36:00 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> References: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111143600.7yk2skkkwkks0o4k@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Michael Jennings : > We return to the question of, "Can we use RHEL as the base for cAos > without getting ourselves into licensing problems?" Yes, if we base it on the SRPMS and remove any trademarks, etc. in compliance with RedHat's terms. RH has a whole page on this on their site. > Furthermore, if RedHat plans to forbid the copying of RHEL between > machines, how certain are we that the entirety of RHEL will still be > available for download? They only forbid the copying of their binaries. The source files are fine, minus any trademark and other legal issues. I've been personally assured (what ever that is worth) by several RH engineers/developers that they will continue (to quote them "always" or "forever") release the SRPMS not only for the OS but for any updates they do via the network for download. Now, they don't have to do this. They only have to make it available. But the people inside RH I've talked to all say there is absolutely no plan to change they way (ftp/httpd) they distribute the SRPMS. From mej at kainx.org Tue Nov 11 12:44:55 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:44:55 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111143600.7yk2skkkwkks0o4k@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> <20031111143600.7yk2skkkwkks0o4k@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20031111204455.GJ30867@kainx.org> On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 14:36:00 (-0600), Eric Rostetter wrote: > Yes, if we base it on the SRPMS and remove any trademarks, etc. in > compliance with RedHat's terms. RH has a whole page on this on > their site. Sure, for anything they elect to GPL. What if they choose to license some packages proprietarily? Do we just ignore those packages? Fork earlier versions? Clone them from scratch? > I've been personally assured (what ever that is worth) by several RH > engineers/developers that they will continue (to quote them "always" > or "forever") release the SRPMS not only for the OS but for any > updates they do via the network for download. RedHat assurances and a gumball are worth a gumball. (I used to maintain RH-VALE for VA Linux. 'Nuff said.) I realize that the current situation has not changed. But should RedHat elect to pull the proverbial carpet out from underneath our somewhat-less-proverbial feet, as they did for their customers as shown by this article, we need to be ready for it. That's all I meant to say. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "To turn away and not become another nail to pierce the skin of One who loved more deeply than the oceans, more abundant than the tears of a world embracing every heartache." -- Jars of Clay, "Worlds Apart" From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 12:46:08 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:46:08 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031111144608.0lf8kkww0sc8wgs4@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Chris Hedemark : > We're not (ready, that is), but that's precisely why we need volunteers. How does one volunteer? > I suck at web page design. But I'm not bad at some other things. Right I'm not great at web page design, but I'll do it if given the resources (access to the web page, for example). > Obviously we need programmers, packagers, etc. We clearly also need > someone to take ownership of the web site. And if we want to be taken > seriously we'll need documentation, as well. Well, I'd be willing to take a stab at the web site and/or docs, but someone needs to tell me what to do, etc. > When we get into maintenance we'll need responsible people to take > ownership of components of cAos. Are you a KDE lover? How about assuming > ongoing responsibility for the KDE packages & integration. Or maybe > Anaconda is your thing and you'll work on maintaining & improving the > installer. And did I mention docs? Is there some way to volunteer for this? Say (for example) I wanted to be involved in for example apache and php? How would I express that interest? I'm going through the same thing on the Fedora Legacy list. They say we need someone to do the web/faq/docs. I say, "Hey, I could probably do that!" Nothing happens... No one gets back to me... Oh well... > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos Eric From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 12:49:09 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:49:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111204455.GJ30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Michael Jennings wrote: > Sure, for anything they elect to GPL. What if they choose to license > some packages proprietarily? Do we just ignore those packages? Fork > earlier versions? Clone them from scratch? What they do in the future has no bearing on what we're doing now. From mej at kainx.org Tue Nov 11 12:51:12 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:51:12 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: <20031111204455.GJ30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111205112.GK30867@kainx.org> On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 15:49:09 (-0500), Chris Hedemark wrote: > What they do in the future has no bearing on what we're doing now. Rather short-sighted, IMHO. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts." -- Ambassador Londo Mollari (Peter Jurasik), "Babylon Five" From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 12:52:00 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:52:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111144608.0lf8kkww0sc8wgs4@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: > How does one volunteer? Get on the IRC channel, find something you feel the need to do, and do it. If you need rights on the web server to do what you need to do, ask on the IRC channel. > I'm not great at web page design, but I'll do it if given the resources > (access to the web page, for example). You don't even need to know more than the most basic HTML because of the way the web site is set up. > Is there some way to volunteer for this? Say (for example) I wanted > to be involved in for example apache and php? How would I express that > interest? Build SRPM's & RPM's, sign them, submit them, and keep up with patches. > I'm going through the same thing on the Fedora Legacy list. They say > we need someone to do the web/faq/docs. I say, "Hey, I could probably > do that!" Nothing happens... No one gets back to me... Oh well... That's sort of the Open Source way. Nobody really holds your hand. Do what you feel the strong want/need to do, and if something gets in your way ask for that barrier to be removed or eased, but otherwise nobody is going to stop you for cranking out packages. They might suggest you adjust your .rpmmacros but they won't tell you to stop packaging. :) From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 12:53:06 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:53:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111205112.GK30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Michael Jennings wrote: > > What they do in the future has no bearing on what we're doing now. > > Rather short-sighted, IMHO. Not at all, though maybe we are seeing things differently. I look at this project as a fork. Are you seeing it as an ongoing maintenance of free packages for whatever RH puts out? That might work for cAos-el but is irrelevant to cAos-gp. From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 12:56:59 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:56:59 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111202810.GA3582@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> <20031111202810.GA3582@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031111145659.f95xyc0k0cwccwcg@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Greg Kurtzer : > Right now, it is a farily small group doing the core OS, but we need much > more > then that. Seriously, I got several replies regarding someone taking over > content management on the site, but nobody that just came out and said "I > WANT > the responsiability!" which is what we need. Then you need to ask for volunteers and tell them what is required, how it is setup, how much freedom they have to change things, etc. If I don't know what the job entails (CMS, CVS, php, html, xml, etc) then how can I demand the job? I'm going to just express interest, so that if you come back and tell me I need to know something I don't (php, xml, etc) I can back out, or ask for help, or volunteer to create content but not manage the site, etc. > The job does not require php, or > even shell access to the server, and it has a nice administrative HTML based > interface for managing _all_ content. People that want to do PHP or backend > coding is also needed. Okay, but those contradict each other. What is the php/backend coding needed for? Do you want independent content creators (say, maybe I'll create an installation guide or user's guide, but I don't want to run the web site) or do you want this all-in-one-person? > I will post a needed positions section of the site in the next few days (yes, > I have said this before). Some roles will include package maintainers (will > need a lot of these), PHP programmers, documentation people, support people > to > help on user mailing lists, core OS programmers, etc... Make sure that when you do post it the site, you let us know. Lot's of us would probably help, but we don't cruise the web site on a regular basis. We only watch the mailing list. We probably won't volunteer for anything until asked... > Thanks! > Greg From sinner at escomposlinux.org Tue Nov 11 13:00:27 2003 From: sinner at escomposlinux.org (Sinner from the Prairy) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:00:27 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311111600.29760.sinner@escomposlinux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 11 November 2003 02:45 pm, Chris Hedemark wrote: > We're not (ready, that is), but that's precisely why we need volunteers. I'll try to get some volunteers. > I suck at web page design. But I'm not bad at some other things. I grok php if it's needed. See http://www.ibiblio.org/sinner/AthenaPortal/ > Right > now I'm taking evangelism as a mission to scare up volunteers, increase > community awareness of our project and as mentioned earlier make the > search engines find our little project. Me too. I try to raise awareness in Spain. > Obviously we need programmers, packagers, etc. We clearly also need > someone to take ownership of the web site. And if we want to be taken > seriously we'll need documentation, as well. I'm trying to help in rpm-building. Later, I could write some docs or do i18n. Or keep recruiting sysadmins for cAos. Salut, Sinner - -- Visit my website! http://www.ibiblio.org/sinner/ Running on Mandrake Linux 9.0 - Kernel 2.4.19smp Linux User # 89976 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/sU3tSGQa4/zQ9e8RAntwAKCjdNB6ZCLqJ5W0u1LJY+2+uAJhFQCfc4sF P7gFxMbY7Mb+iHfD1gDt5fU= =wDAe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mej at kainx.org Tue Nov 11 13:02:15 2003 From: mej at kainx.org (Michael Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:02:15 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: <20031111205112.GK30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111210215.GL30867@kainx.org> On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 15:53:06 (-0500), Chris Hedemark wrote: > I look at this project as a fork. Are you seeing it as an ongoing > maintenance of free packages for whatever RH puts out? That might > work for cAos-el but is irrelevant to cAos-gp. As RHEL continues to grow and improve, chances are we'll need to keep up. If we're forking, that's great, but we'll probably want to try to keep up with additions and updates and such to maintain as much compatibility as possible, at least until cAos-EL gains acceptance amongst ISV's. Nothing to do with the other two cAos flavors, of course. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'll be leaving soon; it's hard to say when I'll return, and I don't want to lead you on. So if you feel the need, close your eyes and share this dream. It will be Eternity." -- Blessid Union of Souls, "Forever for Tonight" From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 13:09:10 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:09:10 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111204455.GJ30867@kainx.org> References: <20031111190233.GF30867@kainx.org> <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> <20031111143600.7yk2skkkwkks0o4k@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <20031111204455.GJ30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111150910.arndhckkcck480oo@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Michael Jennings : > On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 14:36:00 (-0600), > Eric Rostetter wrote: > > > Yes, if we base it on the SRPMS and remove any trademarks, etc. in > > compliance with RedHat's terms. RH has a whole page on this on > > their site. > > Sure, for anything they elect to GPL. What if they choose to license > some packages proprietarily? They would have to be original packages that are not currently open licensed. > Do we just ignore those packages? Fork > earlier versions? Clone them from scratch? Yes, one of those. Which depends on which package they would do that to, wether there are older free versions, etc. > > I've been personally assured (what ever that is worth) by several RH > > engineers/developers that they will continue (to quote them "always" > > or "forever") release the SRPMS not only for the OS but for any > > updates they do via the network for download. > > RedHat assurances and a gumball are worth a gumball. (I used to > maintain RH-VALE for VA Linux. 'Nuff said.) Yes, I basically agree with that (but didn't want to say it so blatently). > I realize that the current situation has not changed. But should > RedHat elect to pull the proverbial carpet out from underneath our > somewhat-less-proverbial feet, as they did for their customers as > shown by this article, we need to be ready for it. That's all I meant > to say. I don't see this as likely, or worth preparing for. It is like saying if Linus decides to pull the carpet (kernel) out from under our feet. Or apache does. Or whatever... You can't prepare for these things, since none of them seem likely. In the absence of news about RH (like they are being bought out, going out of business, migrating to windows, etc) then I see no way you can prepare for their actions. You just have to take them at their word and their past history (and despite what people are saying, or how much I hate their current changes, their history is solidly in the open source camp). > Michael Eric From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 13:15:56 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:15:56 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031111151556.u06pkwgckwss4s0c@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Chris Hedemark : > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: > > > How does one volunteer? > > Get on the IRC channel, find something you feel the need to do, and do it. > If you need rights on the web server to do what you need to do, ask on the > IRC channel. Ah, damn. This is what the Fedora Legacy people said to. And my reply was "I don't do IRC..." I guess that's why I only work on projects like Horde where IRC exists and is used but isn't the prefered/only path to helping out. BTW, if you want to suggest someone join the IRC channel, it would help to tell them which channel... (Not that it matters, I have no immediate plans to IRC anything). > > I'm not great at web page design, but I'll do it if given the resources > > (access to the web page, for example). > > You don't even need to know more than the most basic HTML because of the > way the web site is set up. I know probably way too much then ;) > Build SRPM's & RPM's, sign them, submit them, and keep up with patches. Submit them where? What if someone else is already doing it? How do I know which packages need to be done? > That's sort of the Open Source way. No, not really. There is no Open Source way. I've seen projects with defined paths/roadmaps, and you *can't* contribute anything that isn't on that path. I've seen some where people do hold your hand. I've seen some where they actually ask for volunteers to do specific things. And I've seen ones where people just do what they want. > Nobody really holds your hand. Do > what you feel the strong want/need to do, and if something gets in your > way ask for that barrier to be removed or eased, but otherwise nobody is > going to stop you for cranking out packages. Even if they are crap (broken, buggy, insecure, won't install, etc?) We need to have some QA, or help for those not meeting the QA levels. Otherwise we'll have one terrible distribution. > They might suggest you > adjust your .rpmmacros but they won't tell you to stop packaging. :) Probably so, but I'd hope someone is actually QA'ing submissions... From vossenjp at netaxs.com Tue Nov 11 13:21:05 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:21:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Tasks: Security Message-ID: I've spoken privatly to Greg and agreed to take on some role as far as "security" goes. I will also do security documentation. It remains to be seen how much of a sub-set--if any--"security docs" are of "regular docs." My role is not well defined yet. I'm thinking of it as "cAos Security Geek" for the moment. :-) The first order of business (after I finish some unrelated tasks that are sucking up all my time right now) is to write a security architechture document. This will frame at a very high level our goals and intent. In particular, I am not aware of a general purpose Linux distribution that is suitable out of the box for use as a "security appliance"--to install a firewall or Snort on, for example. A Red Hat minimal distro is hopelessly bloated and other products are too specific (e.g. Mandrakes MNF). Thus cAos-sa (security appliance) was born. The idea right now is to make that the secure and hardened core, on top of which other packages are installed until you get GP (General Purpose), EL (Enterprise, the RHEL rebuild), and CL (need a better name, but the cluster node stuff). An inevitable side-effect of installing more software is less security, so we start with the bare minimum and work up to more general. There are LOTS of other ideas and issues related to this. Greg has talked about the meta RPM that deliberatly conflicts with known bad or known insecure software. There are also many security options that are not suitable for a GP system that may be suitable or desiable for a secure one i.e. SE Linux and various similar patch/kernel sets. Then there are chroot, firewalls, host.[deny|allow], and all that fun stuff related to hardening. That is why I'm not sure if the security and regular docs will be different. I want to make security part of cAos from the ground up. Similar to, but not quite the same as OpenBSD. OpenBSD goes to a very hard core level with proactive code review (good) and tight control over the entire system (good, but not realistic with the GNU and other components in Linux). They also deliberatly break perceived insecure things like some of the IPv6 compatability stuff (not good from my perspective). Well, anyway, that's the idea. When I get a draft written I will let this list know where it is and how to send feedback. Later, JP PS--I have added a cAos page to my NEW web site, which will be deployed Real Soon Now. The existing site, well, needs to be replaced really badly. ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 13:37:29 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:37:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111151556.u06pkwgckwss4s0c@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: > I guess that's why I only work on projects like Horde where IRC exists > and is used but isn't the prefered/only path to helping out. I can't really get into IRC at work which is part of why I'm not more involved than I am with day to day stuff. This email list, obviously, is something I can do during the day. Hopefully some things can get done through this channel as well if people use it. > BTW, if you want to suggest someone join the IRC channel, it would help > to tell them which channel... (Not that it matters, I have no immediate > plans to IRC anything). #caos on freednode > > Build SRPM's & RPM's, sign them, submit them, and keep up with patches. > > Submit them where? What if someone else is already doing it? How do I > know which packages need to be done? I don't know that there is a formal way to do this right now. > Even if they are crap (broken, buggy, insecure, won't install, etc?) > We need to have some QA, or help for those not meeting the QA levels. > Otherwise we'll have one terrible distribution. OK it sounds like you're volunteering to come up with a package policy and workflow. :) It sounds like something we need. http://fedora.us is probably a great place to start (Fedora had some great tools & documents up on this process that we could probably embrace & extend) > Probably so, but I'd hope someone is actually QA'ing submissions... Sounds like another good use of volunteer time. From herrold at owlriver.com Tue Nov 11 14:05:21 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:05:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Volunteering, was: Re: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111144608.0lf8kkww0sc8wgs4@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <20031111144608.0lf8kkww0sc8wgs4@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: > How does one volunteer? > I'm going through the same thing on the Fedora Legacy list. They say > we need someone to do the web/faq/docs. I say, "Hey, I could probably > do that!" Nothing happens... No one gets back to me... Oh well... - set up an account at the caosity.org site - complete the profile - set up an account in the caos bugzilla (when we place it back online after a security fix is applied) - join the IRC channel and assist in shaking out the bugs de jour - write a daily progress summary to the mailing list - test and file bugzilla reports. -- Russ Herrold From chrish at trilug.org Tue Nov 11 14:40:21 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Chris Hedemark) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Volunteering, was: Re: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, R P Herrold wrote: > - set up an account in the caos bugzilla (when we place it > back online after a security fix is applied) Are you the volunteer working on that? Will it be announced here when it is back online? From lance at uklinux.net Tue Nov 11 14:57:25 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:57:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Chris Hedemark wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: > > > I guess that's why I only work on projects like Horde where IRC exists > > and is used but isn't the prefered/only path to helping out. > > I can't really get into IRC at work which is part of why I'm not more > involved than I am with day to day stuff. This email list, obviously, is > something I can do during the day. Hopefully some things can get done > through this channel as well if people use it. I agree, IRC is good , buit a lot of people miss things and it isnt good for disseminating information of making group decisions. It is good though for getting instant answers from people that are there. I wonder if some form of forum running on the website would be advantageous ?? > > BTW, if you want to suggest someone join the IRC channel, it would help > > to tell them which channel... (Not that it matters, I have no immediate > > plans to IRC anything). > > #caos on freednode errm - freenode - irc.freenode.net If you want to look at the irc discussions I have uploaded the raw logs to www.caosity.org/irclogs - I'll try to keep them up to date. > > > Build SRPM's & RPM's, sign them, submit them, and keep up with patches. > > > > Submit them where? What if someone else is already doing it? How do I > > know which packages need to be done? > > I don't know that there is a formal way to do this right now. Greg has a aystem for people to take control of packages in the temple, (temple.caosity.org , but I'm not sure that it is up to date. I think he has been flat out preparing a beta for sc2003 and we need to do a lot of work on the site when the show is over - extrapolating to multiple versions etc. > > Even if they are crap (broken, buggy, insecure, won't install, etc?) > > We need to have some QA, or help for those not meeting the QA levels. > > Otherwise we'll have one terrible distribution. > > OK it sounds like you're volunteering to come up with a package policy and > workflow. :) It sounds like something we need. http://fedora.us is > probably a great place to start (Fedora had some great tools & documents > up on this process that we could probably embrace & extend) > > > Probably so, but I'd hope someone is actually QA'ing submissions... > > Sounds like another good use of volunteer time. Gregs temple has a voting system where a package has to get a minimum nu8mber of votes before being accepted, again I think he / someone needs to do some more work on it as its use was probably a little premature for the project because at the time no one seemed to be voting on the packages that were uploaded, probably because they didnt have a build system to test stuff in .. Hopefully that will all change in the next week. It really is great to see a lot of new volunteers to the project - I see lots of requests from people regarding what they are going to do in December when RH drop support for the older versions, and I want desperately to be able to tell them to use cAos - in one form or another. Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From lance at uklinux.net Tue Nov 11 15:49:15 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:49:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Volunteering, was: Re: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, R P Herrold wrote: >> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: >> How does one volunteer? >> I'm going through the same thing on the Fedora Legacy list. They say >> we need someone to do the web/faq/docs. I say, "Hey, I could probably >> do that!" Nothing happens... No one gets back to me... Oh well... > - set up an account at the caosity.org site That is a mambo account ... > - complete the profile Do you mean for the temple ??? If so I cant find the link to do it - guess we need to resurrect it ??? > - set up an account in the caos bugzilla (when we place it back online after a security fix is applied) The security alert was not for the stable version we're running :) But the new bugzilla is not fully operational yet ... Regards Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 11 15:53:34 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:53:34 -0800 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111145659.f95xyc0k0cwccwcg@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <20031111191658.GG30867@kainx.org> <20031111202810.GA3582@runlevelzero.net> <20031111145659.f95xyc0k0cwccwcg@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20031111235334.GC3582@runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 02:56:59PM -0600, Eric Rostetter told me: > Then you need to ask for volunteers and tell them what is required, how > it is setup, how much freedom they have to change things, etc. > > If I don't know what the job entails (CMS, CVS, php, html, xml, etc) then > how can I demand the job? I'm going to just express interest, so that > if you come back and tell me I need to know something I don't (php, xml, > etc) I can back out, or ask for help, or volunteer to create content but > not manage the site, etc. This is a really good point, and my fault. I should have been more specific. I will put together something on the site tonight and then send mail to the list that it has been posted. > > The job does not require php, or > > even shell access to the server, and it has a nice administrative HTML based > > interface for managing _all_ content. People that want to do PHP or backend > > coding is also needed. > > Okay, but those contradict each other. What is the php/backend coding needed > for? Do you want independent content creators (say, maybe I'll create > an installation guide or user's guide, but I don't want to run the web site) > or do you want this all-in-one-person? For the content management role I am thinking of a technical editor/writer. The programmer will maintain the site engine, upgrades, etc... Also, for a php programmer, we will need someone that can build a donation system (ie. someone with dot.com experience should be good here), voting booth for people that have made donations, temple interface to package managers, etc... My opinion is that this would at least 2 roles. > Make sure that when you do post it the site, you let us know. Lot's of > us would probably help, but we don't cruise the web site on a regular > basis. We only watch the mailing list. We probably won't volunteer for > anything until asked... Will do! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From lance at uklinux.net Tue Nov 11 15:55:39 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:55:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Volunteering, was: Re: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Lance Davis wrote: > > - complete the profile > > Do you mean for the temple ??? If so I cant find the link to do it - guess > we need to resurrect it ??? I found it - mozilla kept me logged in to the temple so I couldnt see it ... https://temple.caosity.org has a link to create a new developer account. Regards Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 11 16:00:20 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:00:20 -0800 Subject: Volunteering, was: Re: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031112000020.GD3582@runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 11:55:39PM +0000, Lance Davis told me: > > https://temple.caosity.org has a link to create a new developer account. You can get an account, but until the interface is linked to the build system again, there is not much you can do there... Sorry, working as fast as I can... If there is anyone that wants to help, the only thing that I can suggest is to just do it. Figure out how we are doing the builds (until someone docs it), and build a prototype on your personal system. Send email to us to demo it, and we can work from there. If anyone wants to see the code that I prototpyed I can forward it. Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 11 16:46:03 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:46:03 -0800 Subject: [cAos] timeline for GP release... Message-ID: <20031112004603.GA5743@runlevelzero.net> I want to initiate an OS build tonight (after we finish implementing rpm-4.1.1 and gcc3). Once we do that, we will repopulate the yum repository and buildroot with the newly built packages, and then build one more time to make sure we are clean and self hosting. When we finish these rebuilds, we will push the repository to caosity.org and distribute the prototype installers. This will formally bring cAos-GP into beta. Expect this (hopefully) by the end of the weekend (if all goes well). Once the beta is released, we will be spending more time on the infrastructure and site so others can now use the BETA to start maintaining their own packages and upload to the temple. Thanks for the patience everyone! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 19:56:23 2003 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:56:23 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues Message-ID: <20031111215623.w014o40co08ww4k4@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Chris Hedemark : > OK it sounds like you're volunteering to come up with a package policy and > workflow. :) Actually, no. I'm willing to volunteer and help with some packages, web development, or documentation (user/install guide, faq, etc). But not to develop (or lead) anything dealing with policy or workflow. > It sounds like something we need. http://fedora.us is > probably a great place to start (Fedora had some great tools & documents > up on this process that we could probably embrace & extend) Sounds good, I hope someone else will take up the challenge. > > Probably so, but I'd hope someone is actually QA'ing submissions... > > Sounds like another good use of volunteer time. Once there is something to QA, I'll probably help. So far I don't know of anything to QA. -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Why get even? Get odd! From eric.rostetter at physics.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 13:20:00 2003 From: eric.rostetter at physics.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:20:00 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111210215.GL30867@kainx.org> References: <20031111205112.GK30867@kainx.org> <20031111210215.GL30867@kainx.org> Message-ID: <20031111152000.rudu2sckkowkogwg@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Michael Jennings : > On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 15:53:06 (-0500), > Chris Hedemark wrote: > > > I look at this project as a fork. Are you seeing it as an ongoing > > maintenance of free packages for whatever RH puts out? That might > > work for cAos-el but is irrelevant to cAos-gp. > > As RHEL continues to grow and improve, chances are we'll need to keep > up. Since RHEL isn't really meant to grow much within a release, this shouldn't be a big problem. Their goal is minimal changes so they can have a 5 year release cycle. Fedora is for growth, RHEL is for stability. > If we're forking, that's great, but we'll probably want to try to > keep up with additions and updates and such to maintain as much > compatibility as possible, at least until cAos-EL gains acceptance > amongst ISV's. Updates for sure. I don't expect many additions (other than maybe kernel updates). But maybe I understand RH wrong about the goal/path of RHEL? Lord knows it is hard to understand anything RH is saying these days... -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Why get even? Get odd! From eric.rostetter at physics.utexas.edu Tue Nov 11 19:55:00 2003 From: eric.rostetter at physics.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:55:00 -0600 Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031111215500.6mk0o08kg000kwkg@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Chris Hedemark : > OK it sounds like you're volunteering to come up with a package policy and > workflow. :) Actually, no. I'm willing to volunteer and help with some packages, web development, or documentation (user/install guide, faq, etc). But not to develop (or lead) anything dealing with policy or workflow. > It sounds like something we need. http://fedora.us is > probably a great place to start (Fedora had some great tools & documents > up on this process that we could probably embrace & extend) Sounds good, I hope someone else will take up the challenge. > > Probably so, but I'd hope someone is actually QA'ing submissions... > > Sounds like another good use of volunteer time. Once there is something to QA, I'll probably help. So far I don't know of anything to QA. -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Why get even? Get odd! From jim at rossberry.com Wed Nov 12 02:15:52 2003 From: jim at rossberry.com (Jim Wildman) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:15:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] RHEL Licensing Issues In-Reply-To: <20031111152000.rudu2sckkowkogwg@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: In the 12 months I've been using RHAS the only package that RH has added features to is the kernel. Everything else has been restricted to security fixes. On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting Michael Jennings : > > > On Tuesday, 11 November 2003, at 15:53:06 (-0500), > > Chris Hedemark wrote: > > > > > I look at this project as a fork. Are you seeing it as an ongoing > > > maintenance of free packages for whatever RH puts out? That might > > > work for cAos-el but is irrelevant to cAos-gp. > > > > As RHEL continues to grow and improve, chances are we'll need to keep > > up. > > Since RHEL isn't really meant to grow much within a release, this shouldn't > be a big problem. Their goal is minimal changes so they can have a 5 > year release cycle. Fedora is for growth, RHEL is for stability. > > > If we're forking, that's great, but we'll probably want to try to > > keep up with additions and updates and such to maintain as much > > compatibility as possible, at least until cAos-EL gains acceptance > > amongst ISV's. > > Updates for sure. I don't expect many additions (other than maybe kernel > updates). > > But maybe I understand RH wrong about the goal/path of RHEL? Lord knows > it is hard to understand anything RH is saying these days... > > -- > Eric Rostetter > The Department of Physics > The University of Texas at Austin > > Why get even? Get odd! > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE jim at rossberry.com http://www.rossberry.com From parsley at alfred.edu Wed Nov 12 05:21:34 2003 From: parsley at alfred.edu (David L. Parsley) Date: 12 Nov 2003 08:21:34 -0500 Subject: [cAos] RedHat documentation licensing? Message-ID: <1068643294.8965.149.camel@linuxjedi.org> Hi all, I've decided to go ahead and try to honor the RedHat trademarks in my own rebuild project - 'Tao Linux'. Toward this end, I've modified tons of images in anaconda-images and redhat-logos -> tao-logos; mainly replacing shadowman with a yin-yang. ;-) (and s/Red Hat/Tao/). Now I realize that I need to modify anaconda-help, as well - whose COPYING file clearly states I can't distribute documentation that references a variety of Red Hat trademarks. (yech!) The various rhel-whateverguides, however, don't explicitly say that; the sources don't contain any COPYING statement, and the SPEC file lists the license as 'distributable'. I suspect, since 'Fedora' has _no_ documentation, that RH would frown upon their docs being included in 'Tao Linux', or the 'CaOs' dist; but I thought I'd solicit opinions on the matter... regards, David -- David L. Parsley Network Systems Administrator, Alfred University "If I have seen further, it is by standing on ye shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton From mhedemark at trueposition.com Wed Nov 12 08:08:19 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:08:19 -0500 Subject: [cAos] security@caosity.org Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C90B4709@mail2.trueposition.com> I saw in the IRC logs that someone was asking for a security@ address for a role rather than putting someone's direct email address in as the security contact. While there is not an archive yet (until now), as you can see there is already a security at caosity.org address. Magnus Hedemark Linux Network Admin TruePosition, Inc. Office 610-680-1133 FAX 610-680-1199 From lance at uklinux.net Wed Nov 12 08:14:23 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:14:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] security@caosity.org In-Reply-To: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C90B4709@mail2.trueposition.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Hedemark, Magnus wrote: > I saw in the IRC logs that someone was asking for a security@ address for a > role rather than putting someone's direct email address in as the security > contact. > > While there is not an archive yet (until now), as you can see there is > already a security at caosity.org address. security at caosity.org is actually a separate mailing list that has been set up, but not yet configured afaict. Regards Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Nov 12 10:51:10 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:51:10 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Web site changes... Message-ID: <20031112185110.GB18461@runlevelzero.net> http://caosity.org/ cAos - GP info http://caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=60&op=page&SubMenu= cAos lead maintainer roles (and open roles) http://caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=72&op=page&SubMenu= Thoughts and comments welcomed. -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From lance at uklinux.net Wed Nov 12 11:16:13 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:16:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] RedHat documentation licensing? In-Reply-To: <1068643294.8965.149.camel@linuxjedi.org> Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2003, David L. Parsley wrote: > I suspect, since 'Fedora' has _no_ documentation, that RH would frown > upon their docs being included in 'Tao Linux', or the 'CaOs' dist; but I > thought I'd solicit opinions on the matter... all of the rhel documents (http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/) are released under the open content license :- http://www.opencontent.org/openpub viz you may distribute them electronically as is without modifications, you must get permission to print them. so as redhat havent said anything about them needing to be modified in their trademark requirements it should be ok to include them unmodified within a forked distribution. (I assume that this is what the rhel- packages contain) IANAL and you should consult your own. Regards Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From rocky at atipa.com Wed Nov 12 11:22:35 2003 From: rocky at atipa.com (Rocky McGaugh) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:22:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] Web site changes... In-Reply-To: <20031112185110.GB18461@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > http://caosity.org/ > > cAos - GP info > http://caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=60&op=page&SubMenu= > > cAos lead maintainer roles (and open roles) > http://caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=72&op=page&SubMenu= > > Thoughts and comments welcomed. > No difference/distinction between cAos1 and cAos2? -- Rocky McGaugh Atipa Technologies rocky at atipatechnologies.com rmcgaugh at atipa.com 1-785-841-9513 x3110 http://67.8450073/ perl -e 'print unpack(u, ".=W=W+F%T:7\!A+F-O;0H`");' From rocky at atipa.com Wed Nov 12 11:42:24 2003 From: rocky at atipa.com (Rocky McGaugh) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:42:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] rhel3 ia64 and amd64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone have a working rebuild for these two arch's yet that they would like to donate to the world? Not trying to shirk work, just to save time..:) -- Rocky McGaugh Atipa Technologies rocky at atipatechnologies.com rmcgaugh at atipa.com 1-785-841-9513 x3110 http://67.8450073/ perl -e 'print unpack(u, ".=W=W+F%T:7\!A+F-O;0H`");' From chrish at trilug.org Wed Nov 12 12:15:12 2003 From: chrish at trilug.org (Magnus) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:15:12 -0500 Subject: [cAos] Web site changes... In-Reply-To: <20031112185110.GB18461@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:51 PM, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Thoughts and comments welcomed. Is it easy to give people editor access to the web site? I can't take on the whole site, but when I see articles like this there are lots of little fixes that it would be nice to be able to submit changes (like a wiki, but authenticated). For example, search that page for the substring "iabl" and you'll get a few words that would not make it through a spell checker. Also, things like "rhel2" should be correctly attributed like "RHEL 2.1" or "RHAS 2.1" (I don't think they used "RHEL" until 3.0 but I could be mistaken on that). As for the content, I would take issue with subjective statements like "From the command line, it will also seem very much RH7.3 like (as many of us still believe that was the best Linux distro to date)." While it might be true that some of the core developers prefer Red Hat Linux 7.3, others may object. Personally, I think Red Hat Linux 9 is their best distribution to date in that there are fewer things I have change from the default configuration; using CUPS and Postfix is about as easy as it can get in Red Hat Linux 9. So if I were to correct the example statement I would probably just say something like "Users of Red Hat Linux 7.3 will feel right at home in the command line interface of cAos-gp-1." It makes the point, but doesn't say anything that may negatively polarize the reader. -- C. Magnus Hedemark http://trilug.org/~chrish "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20031112/b63be2ed/attachment.bin From jim at rossberry.com Wed Nov 12 15:03:31 2003 From: jim at rossberry.com (Jim Wildman) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:03:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Web site changes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Magnus wrote: > Also, things like "rhel2" should be correctly attributed like "RHEL > 2.1" or "RHAS 2.1" (I don't think they used "RHEL" until 3.0 but I > could be mistaken on that). I didn't start hearing RHEL until the later part of the summer. Before that it was RHAS and RHWS. > > As for the content, I would take issue with subjective statements like > "From the command line, it will also seem very much RH7.3 like (as many > of us still believe that was the best Linux distro to date)." While it > might be true that some of the core developers prefer Red Hat Linux > 7.3, others may object. Personally, I think Red Hat Linux 9 is their > best distribution to date in that there are fewer things I have change > from the default configuration; using CUPS and Postfix is about as > easy as it can get in Red Hat Linux 9. So if I were to correct the > example statement I would probably just say something like "Users of > Red Hat Linux 7.3 will feel right at home in the command line interface > of cAos-gp-1." It makes the point, but doesn't say anything that may > negatively polarize the reader. I absolutely agree with this kind of rewording. It is good to depolitize stuff where possible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE jim at rossberry.com http://www.rossberry.com From jn at it.swin.edu.au Wed Nov 12 15:15:07 2003 From: jn at it.swin.edu.au (John Newbigin) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:15:07 +1100 Subject: [cAos] Some things to watch out for Message-ID: <3FB2BEFB.8090105@it.swin.edu.au> I just though I would post some things I have found in my rebuild of RHEL21AS. RedHat it seems don't rebuild any packages which have not changed since last time they built them. This explains why many of the packages do not build or do not build well on a self hosted system. A downside to this is that there are many build with RPM 4.0.3, 4.0.2, 4.0.1, 4.0, 2.2.0 and 4.0.5. These older versions of RPM do some things differently to 4.0.4 which is probably the version that most people are using. I don't know about 4.0.5 but there might be changes there too. rpm 4.0.4 only strips debug symbols from ELF executables which use shared libs. This is in contrast to older versions which strip all symbols. This means that there are 200+ rpms which when you build might not have stripped executables. The solution to this is to edit /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip and remove the -g from the strip command. There may be other rpm based problems. I am comparing things now to make sure I find them all. I have also found some strange results with time zones. The changelog entry dates are somehow affected by the time zone. I don't know if this is a bug or by design but I have the feeling that something is going wrong in the date processing. Another thing to watch for is the library versions which are used. For many packages this is not a problem but the compat packages which need to use and provide specific historical versions it can be a problem. If you build your own version of these then at least compare the contents to the RH versions and make sure they contain what they should. John. -- Information Technology Innovation Group School of Information Technology Swinburne University of Technology Melbourne, Australia http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin From Michael.Redinger at uibk.ac.at Thu Nov 13 05:04:41 2003 From: Michael.Redinger at uibk.ac.at (Michael Redinger) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:04:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: [cAos] Some things to watch out for In-Reply-To: <3FB2BEFB.8090105@it.swin.edu.au> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, John Newbigin wrote: > rpm 4.0.4 only strips debug symbols from ELF executables which use > shared libs. This is in contrast to older versions which strip all > symbols. This means that there are 200+ rpms which when you build might > not have stripped executables. > > The solution to this is to edit /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip and remove the -g > from the strip command. FYI: In RHEL 3.0 AS, most packages are built with rpm 4.2 or 4.2.1 (only comps and rpmdb-redhat are built using 4.1.1). I therefore thought it would be best to not remove -g when rebuilding RHEL 3.0, right? Michael - -- Michael Redinger Zentraler Informatikdienst (Computer Centre) Universitaet Innsbruck Technikerstrasse 13 Tel.: ++43 512 507 2335 6020 Innsbruck Fax.: ++43 512 507 2944 Austria Mail: Michael.Redinger at uibk.ac.at BB98 D2FE 0F2C 2658 3780 3CB1 0FD7 A9D9 65C2 C11D http://www.uibk.ac.at/~c102mr/mred-pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/s4FtD9ep2WXCwR0RAq7NAKDPMVFk1mHIJW473VacsZPsWq2UbwCfecnT Aepw0JoRuhGQ/vFuGZMtLaU= =I8oW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From josh at newgistics.com Thu Nov 13 07:10:29 2003 From: josh at newgistics.com (Josh Hildebrand) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:10:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [cAos] White Box released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4899.66.68.33.76.1068736229.squirrel@mail.newgistics.com> Today was the first day I heard about this.. but go here for a RHEL 3 rebuild named "White Box" http://www.beau.org/~jmorris/linux/whitebox/ You can download it via BitTorrent. Which is a great way for cAos to be distributed, too! From mhedemark at trueposition.com Thu Nov 13 07:41:18 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:41:18 -0500 Subject: [cAos] White Box released Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C90B471A@mail2.trueposition.com> Josh Hildebrand [mailto:josh at newgistics.com] writes: > Today was the first day I heard about this.. but go here for a RHEL 3 > rebuild named "White Box" > > http://www.beau.org/~jmorris/linux/whitebox/ Thanks for the link. I'll fire up BT ASAP. > You can download it via BitTorrent. Which is a great way for > cAos to be > distributed, too! Agreed. I found some of his tech notes to be very interesting, especially WRT the SRPM's not seeming to match the binaries that Red Hat creates, and some of the sloppy QA with packages like "at". From jn at it.swin.edu.au Thu Nov 13 15:06:31 2003 From: jn at it.swin.edu.au (John Newbigin) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:06:31 +1100 Subject: [cAos] Some things to watch out for In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB40E77.2030707@it.swin.edu.au> Michael Redinger wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, John Newbigin wrote: > > >>rpm 4.0.4 only strips debug symbols from ELF executables which use >>shared libs. This is in contrast to older versions which strip all >>symbols. This means that there are 200+ rpms which when you build might >>not have stripped executables. >> >>The solution to this is to edit /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip and remove the -g >>from the strip command. > > > FYI: In RHEL 3.0 AS, most packages are built with rpm 4.2 or 4.2.1 > (only comps and rpmdb-redhat are built using 4.1.1). > > I therefore thought it would be best to not remove -g when rebuilding > RHEL 3.0, right? I can't vouch for RHEL3. I was talking about RHEL2.1 The best thing to do though is check that your files are stripped. If you are concerned you could find the change logs for RPM 4.2 and 4.2.1. (not that this was in the change log for 4.0.4...). If you have access to a real RHEL3 box then you could do a bulk compare. John. > > > Michael > > > > - -- > Michael Redinger > Zentraler Informatikdienst (Computer Centre) > Universitaet Innsbruck > Technikerstrasse 13 Tel.: ++43 512 507 2335 > 6020 Innsbruck Fax.: ++43 512 507 2944 > Austria Mail: Michael.Redinger at uibk.ac.at > BB98 D2FE 0F2C 2658 3780 3CB1 0FD7 A9D9 65C2 C11D > http://www.uibk.ac.at/~c102mr/mred-pubkey.asc > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/s4FtD9ep2WXCwR0RAq7NAKDPMVFk1mHIJW473VacsZPsWq2UbwCfecnT > Aepw0JoRuhGQ/vFuGZMtLaU= > =I8oW > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > > -- Information Technology Innovation Group School of Information Technology Swinburne University of Technology Melbourne, Australia http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin From roger at infomed.sld.cu Thu Nov 13 15:56:50 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:56:50 -0500 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL In-Reply-To: <3FAEBF57.9050605@it.swin.edu.au> References: <1068238231.3fac05978c33c@webmail.sld.cu> <3FAEBF57.9050605@it.swin.edu.au> Message-ID: <1068767810.3fb41a4207548@webmail.sld.cu> Mensaje citado por John Newbigin : > I assume you are using 2.1AS > yes, you are right > libaio-0.3.92-1.src.rpm is only for ia64. i'm in a Pentium III so it is i686 arch :-( well, but why glibc as for this package to rebuild ? and also glibc ask about libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.1 when trying to install i read in the changelog that libaio should install only if libredhat-kernel.so.1 is not present (and should be because all the kernels package suply it) right now i'm in the middle of a "big" problem ;-) some packages like, glibc, rpm, yum, (maybe others) need libredhat-kernel lib but only the packages libaio, kernel-smp, kernel-debug, kernel-boot announce that they provided this library but only libaio make the right link inside /lib directory the others just put the file inside /lib/kernel/ so the system (ldd) can't find the library :-( so, just after the upgrade to the rhl-7.2 , rpm fails and also yum fails. ofcource i can make the link by hand but .... i like to automatize this step does caos-el fix this? or the developers never has this problem? thanks roger > > I recommend that you don't include any updates in your distribution. It > takes longer to patch once you install but I found it was much more > reliable. > > John. > > > Roger Pe?a Escobio wrote: > > > hi > > > > sorry because maybe this is an offtopic but it looks that this is the only community > that > > rebuild the RHEL so here i think i will get good tips > > > > i rebuild all the rpms from the rhel but,always is "but" ;-(, i have some problems > with > > libredhat-kernel.so.1 file and with dietlibc package > > > > my problems are: > > 1- libredhat-kernel.so.1 came inside libaio and kernels packages but is only > "advertise" > > with kernel-smp, kernel-boot, kernel-summit and kernel-enterprise > > 2- only libaio package put the libredhat-kernel.so.1 file in /lib directory the other > put > > in /lib/kernel/(uname -r)/ directory (maybe because rc.sysinit should make the link > and > > run ldconfig) > > > > 3- the file insmod.static make a segmentation fault when compiled with dietlibc > this > > implied that the system can't upload any modules at boot time (no scsi or ext3 at > boot time) > > > > my question are: > > do you have this problems too? if yes, what is the workaround? > > i have some ideas but i would like to hear from all of you first > > > > thanks a lot for any coments > > > > roger > > PD1: our final objetive is to migrate our rhl-7.2 to this "distro" > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) > > Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) > > Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed > > http://webmail.sld.cu > > _______________________________________________ > > cAos mailing list > > cAos at caosity.org > > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > > > > > > > > -- > Information Technology Innovation Group > School of Information Technology > Swinburne University of Technology > Melbourne, Australia > http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin > > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From jn at it.swin.edu.au Thu Nov 13 16:52:23 2003 From: jn at it.swin.edu.au (John Newbigin) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:52:23 +1100 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL In-Reply-To: <1068767810.3fb41a4207548@webmail.sld.cu> References: <1068238231.3fac05978c33c@webmail.sld.cu> <3FAEBF57.9050605@it.swin.edu.au> <1068767810.3fb41a4207548@webmail.sld.cu> Message-ID: <3FB42747.3010901@it.swin.edu.au> Roger Pe?a Escobio wrote: > Mensaje citado por John Newbigin : > > >>I assume you are using 2.1AS >> > > yes, you are right > > >>libaio-0.3.92-1.src.rpm is only for ia64. > > i'm in a Pentium III so it is i686 arch :-( > > well, but why glibc as for this package to rebuild ? and also glibc ask about > libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.1 when trying to install You should use libaio-0.3.13-3 # rpm -ql libaio-0.3.13-3 /lib/kernel/stub/libredhat-kernel.so /lib/kernel/stub/libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.1 /lib/libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.0 /usr/lib/libaio.so.1 /usr/share/doc/libaio-0.3.13 /usr/share/doc/libaio-0.3.13/COPYING /usr/share/doc/libaio-0.3.13/TODO Make sure this is the version on your development machine too. John. > > i read in the changelog that libaio should install only if libredhat-kernel.so.1 is not > present (and should be because all the kernels package suply it) > > right now i'm in the middle of a "big" problem ;-) > > some packages like, glibc, rpm, yum, (maybe others) need libredhat-kernel lib but only > the packages libaio, kernel-smp, kernel-debug, kernel-boot announce that they provided > this library but only libaio make the right link inside /lib directory the others just put > the file inside /lib/kernel/ so the system (ldd) can't find the library :-( > so, just after the upgrade to the rhl-7.2 , rpm fails and also yum fails. > ofcource i can make the link by hand but .... i like to automatize this step > > > does caos-el fix this? or the developers never has this problem? > > thanks > roger > > > > >>I recommend that you don't include any updates in your distribution. It >>takes longer to patch once you install but I found it was much more >>reliable. >> >>John. >> >> >>Roger Pe?a Escobio wrote: >> >> >>>hi >>> >>>sorry because maybe this is an offtopic but it looks that this is the only community >> >>that >> >>>rebuild the RHEL so here i think i will get good tips >>> >>>i rebuild all the rpms from the rhel but,always is "but" ;-(, i have some problems >> >>with >> >>>libredhat-kernel.so.1 file and with dietlibc package >>> >>>my problems are: >>>1- libredhat-kernel.so.1 came inside libaio and kernels packages but is only >> >>"advertise" >> >>>with kernel-smp, kernel-boot, kernel-summit and kernel-enterprise >>>2- only libaio package put the libredhat-kernel.so.1 file in /lib directory the other >> >>put >> >>>in /lib/kernel/(uname -r)/ directory (maybe because rc.sysinit should make the link >> >>and >> >>>run ldconfig) >>> >>>3- the file insmod.static make a segmentation fault when compiled with dietlibc >> >>this >> >>>implied that the system can't upload any modules at boot time (no scsi or ext3 at >> >>boot time) >> >>>my question are: >>>do you have this problems too? if yes, what is the workaround? >>>i have some ideas but i would like to hear from all of you first >>> >>>thanks a lot for any coments >>> >>>roger >>>PD1: our final objetive is to migrate our rhl-7.2 to this "distro" >>> >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) >>>Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) >>>Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------- >>>Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed >>>http://webmail.sld.cu >>>_______________________________________________ >>>cAos mailing list >>>cAos at caosity.org >>>http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>Information Technology Innovation Group >>School of Information Technology >>Swinburne University of Technology >>Melbourne, Australia >>http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin >> >>_______________________________________________ >>cAos mailing list >>cAos at caosity.org >>http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) > Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) > Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed > http://webmail.sld.cu > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > > > -- Information Technology Innovation Group School of Information Technology Swinburne University of Technology Melbourne, Australia http://www.it.swin.edu.au/staff/jnewbigin From greg at runlevelzero.net Fri Nov 14 00:13:02 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:13:02 -0800 Subject: [cAos] STATUS: Message-ID: <20031114081302.GA13046@runlevelzero.net> With a large thanks to Denis, we were able to finally get gcc3, rpm-4.1.1, and yum2 into the mix. Now that our base requirements have been met, I just initiated the full OS rebuild. After all packages have successfully been rebuilt, repository structure hammered out a bit more, and the installers (semi)functional the first cAos1-GP beta will be released. As many of you may have noticed, Bugzilla has been brought back online, and the temple is soon to follow (for those of you with pending accounts, please stand by just a bit longer). Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Fri Nov 14 00:46:04 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:46:04 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Web site changes... In-Reply-To: References: <20031112185110.GB18461@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031114084604.GA18399@runlevelzero.net> Thanks for the comments. I have integrated them with the document. Greg On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 03:15:12PM -0500, Magnus told me: > > On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:51 PM, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > >Thoughts and comments welcomed. > > Is it easy to give people editor access to the web site? I can't take > on the whole site, but when I see articles like this there are lots of > little fixes that it would be nice to be able to submit changes (like a > wiki, but authenticated). > > For example, search that page for the substring "iabl" and you'll get a > few words that would not make it through a spell checker. > > Also, things like "rhel2" should be correctly attributed like "RHEL > 2.1" or "RHAS 2.1" (I don't think they used "RHEL" until 3.0 but I > could be mistaken on that). > > As for the content, I would take issue with subjective statements like > "From the command line, it will also seem very much RH7.3 like (as many > of us still believe that was the best Linux distro to date)." While it > might be true that some of the core developers prefer Red Hat Linux > 7.3, others may object. Personally, I think Red Hat Linux 9 is their > best distribution to date in that there are fewer things I have change > from the default configuration; using CUPS and Postfix is about as > easy as it can get in Red Hat Linux 9. So if I were to correct the > example statement I would probably just say something like "Users of > Red Hat Linux 7.3 will feel right at home in the command line interface > of cAos-gp-1." It makes the point, but doesn't say anything that may > negatively polarize the reader. > > -- > > C. Magnus Hedemark > http://trilug.org/~chrish > "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." > - Mark Twain -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From roger at infomed.sld.cu Fri Nov 14 06:03:20 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:03:20 -0500 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL In-Reply-To: <3FB42747.3010901@it.swin.edu.au> References: <1068238231.3fac05978c33c@webmail.sld.cu> <3FAEBF57.9050605@it.swin.edu.au> <1068767810.3fb41a4207548@webmail.sld.cu> <3FB42747.3010901@it.swin.edu.au> Message-ID: <1068818600.3fb4e0a8816bf@webmail.sld.cu> Mensaje citado por John Newbigin : > Roger Pe?a Escobio wrote: > > > Mensaje citado por John Newbigin : > > > > > >>I assume you are using 2.1AS > >> > > > > yes, you are right > > > > > >>libaio-0.3.92-1.src.rpm is only for ia64. > > > > i'm in a Pentium III so it is i686 arch :-( > > > > well, but why glibc as for this package to rebuild ? and also glibc ask about > > libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.1 when trying to install > You should use libaio-0.3.13-3 thanks very much ;-) you are complete right libaio-0.3.92-1.src.rpm was an update only for ia64 my mistake was that it compile in i386 too (without complain) :-( > # rpm -ql libaio-0.3.13-3 > /lib/kernel/stub/libredhat-kernel.so > /lib/kernel/stub/libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.1 > /lib/libredhat-kernel.so.1.0.0 > /usr/lib/libaio.so.1 > /usr/share/doc/libaio-0.3.13 > /usr/share/doc/libaio-0.3.13/COPYING > /usr/share/doc/libaio-0.3.13/TODO > > Make sure this is the version on your development machine too. > should i recompile glibc, rpms and kernel after downgrade to libaio-0.3.13-3 ? do you have some comments about this? : > >>>3- the file insmod.static make a segmentation fault when compiled with dietlibc > >> > >>this > >> > >>>implied that the system can't upload any modules at boot time (no scsi or ext3 at > >> > >>boot time) > >> now i compile modutils without dietlibc and insmod.static run ok (a litle more big but run ok), and the machine boot (load the modules) ok any comments ? thanks a lot roger PD: cAos developers how i can help to support the project? there is any packages that need a maintainer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From mhedemark at trueposition.com Fri Nov 14 06:21:25 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:21:25 -0500 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514B68@mail2.trueposition.com> Roger said: > PD: cAos developers how i can help to support the project? What do you like to do? > there is any packages that need > a maintainer? Pick what you want to "own" and volunteer to own it. I think one area where you could be of enormous assistance is internationalization. Espanol is of course a very widely used language and if you could take ownership of things like spanish translation of the web site or docs, that would be enormously valuable to the project. From roger at infomed.sld.cu Fri Nov 14 07:20:45 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:20:45 -0500 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL In-Reply-To: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514B68@mail2.trueposition.com> References: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514B68@mail2.trueposition.com> Message-ID: <1068823245.3fb4f2cdf1b45@webmail.sld.cu> Mensaje citado por "Hedemark, Magnus" : > Roger said: > > PD: cAos developers how i can help to support the project? > > What do you like to do? > > > there is any packages that need > > a maintainer? > > Pick what you want to "own" and volunteer to own it. > > I think one area where you could be of enormous assistance is > internationalization. Espanol is of course a very widely used language and > if you could take ownership of things like spanish translation of the web > site or docs, that would be enormously valuable to the project. i could do that, i do not know english very much but i promise i will do my best you say "Pick what you want to "own" and volunteer to own it" but where should i look for what to pick ? and then, where should i offert to own it? my own objetive is to be ready to migrate, more and less, 40 Linux servers from rhl-7.x to a _very_ similar linux distro, like a rhel flavor ;-), my own flavour or cAos-el, i don't know yet what i'm prety concern about updates, how cAos will update it's packages? as soon as RedHat release it's updates? thanks roger > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From mhedemark at trueposition.com Fri Nov 14 07:34:52 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:34:52 -0500 Subject: [cAos] problems rebuilding RHEL Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514B6A@mail2.trueposition.com> Roger Pe?a Escobio [mailto:roger at infomed.sld.cu] said: > i could do that, i do not know english very much but i > promise i will do my best I think the Spanish side of it is more important than the English side. If there are parts of the English that you don't understand, there are other Spanish speakers here who may be able to help you here and there as needed with the more difficult parts. > you say "Pick what you want to "own" and volunteer to own it" > but where should i look for > what to pick ? I don't think that there is a centralized list right now. It would be worthwhile for you though to set up an account on http://caosity.org and another one on http://bugzilla.caosity.org and then post a message here listing some of the components you're interested in owning. > and then, where should i offert to own it? For the time being this mailing list is good. Or join our IRC channel ( #caos on irc.freenode.net ) > my own objetive is to be ready to migrate, more and less, 40 > Linux servers from rhl-7.x to > a _very_ similar linux distro, like a rhel flavor ;-), my own > flavour or cAos-el, i don't > know yet Me, too. I'm personally more interested in the cAos2el subproject than the others for my professional work but I do look forward to trying GP on my home system. > what i'm prety concern about updates, how cAos will update > it's packages? as soon as > RedHat release it's updates? Yum is the preferred agent for downloading updates. We're working now towards building a set of mirror sites to carry the base distribution and updates, and then you'll be able to download and install the updates via Yum. As for who is going to build the update packages, I don't know that we have an owner for that yet. From frank at discoverycenters.org Wed Nov 12 15:16:27 2003 From: frank at discoverycenters.org (Frank Overton) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:16:27 -0800 Subject: [cAos] High Availability Clustering Question from a Newbie Message-ID: I am interested in the High Availablility Clustering capabilities of RHEL (2.1 or 3.0). These capabilities appear to be licensed under GPL through RH. On the cAos site it wasn't immediately clear whether the RHEL cluster management and ip load balancing software were to be included and if so in which cAos-EL release. (Infact, I found a reference that mentioned cluster computing to be a taboo topic for some reason.) Thanks, Frank From lance at uklinux.net Fri Nov 14 09:20:51 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:20:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] mailing lists update Message-ID: I have updated (renamed) some of the mailing lists and created some new ones. If you were subscribed to the old mailing list then you are still subscribed to the new one. I apologise if the rename cause any mail filtering to need changes, but these changes had to be made to allow for future expansion of the project :) Old Mailing List New Mailing list ---------------- ---------------- admin at caosity.org caos-project-admin at caosity.org announcements at caosity.org caos-announce at caosity.org mirror at caosity.org caos-mirror at caosity.org maintainers at caosity.org caos-package at caosity.org security at caosity.org caos-security at caosity.org temple at caosity.org caos-temple at caosity.org The lists can be joined at http://caosity.org/mailman/listinfo Some of the lists may need for your joining to be approved by the list moderator, the subscribe pages indicate which. Some of the lists have also been set to only allow posting by members, to try to avoid spam problems, If you want to post from multiple email addresses, then you need to subscribe those addresses to the list but set the option for them to not receive any mail. New Mailing lists ----------------- caos-el-devel at caosity.org Discussion of development issues regarding caos-el caos-gp-devel at caosity.org Discussion of development issues regarding caos-gp caos-sa-devel at caosity.org Discussion of development issues regarding caos-sa These names are not set in stone, in particular there is discussion about the name of the caos-el-devel mailing list that has not yet been finalised in relation to rhel-rebuild. It is hoped that these development mailing lists will be used by people interested in helping development of the products. Certainly the core decelopers should be subscribed and respond to posts on these lists and impart important information to developers using them. There have been complaints that irc is not inclusive enough, especially for people in different time zones, it is also true that it is easy to miss things on irc. There may be a need also for lists for the caos-gp2 etc series caos-gp2-devel at caosity.org caos-el2-devel at caosity.org caos-sa2-devel at caosity.org and also for caos-el at caosity.org or caos-el-discuss at caosity caos-el-install at caosity.org ditto caos-sa caos-gp although these may not be needed until the product is released. Comments welcome. Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From jed at nersc.gov Fri Nov 14 12:06:35 2003 From: jed at nersc.gov (Jed Donnelley) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:06:35 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Rebuild adding "Builds from source!" value to distribution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031114111847.05800530@imap4.lbl.gov> At 05:21 PM 11/14/2003 +0900, Joe Stevens wrote: >Hello all-- > >I recently successfully rebuilt RedHat 3.0AS, and have a distro that is >installable by ftp/http/nfs etc... We have the cAos work, the White Box build, and certainly other work all towards a RH enterprise "rebuild". From the discussions it seems quite clear that this "rebuilding" business is nontrivial, with a fair amount of work going into making the packages actually build - on some system. What I wanted to ask some of those involved is how much more work it might seem to them to be able to build and distribute a system that would ACTUALLY BUILD with no problems, gotchas, etc. ON ITSELF? What I'm thinking is that the problems with such simple rebuild efforts seem to me in some sense to put a lie to the "open source" notion. That is if the idea (an idea?) of "open source" is that you get the sources and, if you need to, you can make minor modifications to the source and rebuild it to suit your needs (as per Stallman's initial Xerox motivation), then if the source build doesn't work as distributed, where is that value? This seems to me an area where the RHel rebuild effort might, at relatively little cost (?), make a significant contribution to the open source movement. I.e. this Rhel rebuild system could be more truly open source than other distributions - e.g. Redhat and others - and (?) still include the added value of tracking Redhat and conveying the value of the Redhat integration efforts and a home for the Redhat refugees (e.g. like me). I'm thinking that essentially marketing a rebuild with this added value (builds on itself from source RPMs!) would add appeal and draw attention to such a rebuild distribution. That added value might make it more of a gathering point (I'm looking for a new Linux "sweet spot" to replace Redhat who seems to have abandoned the position to make a profit) for Linux distributions. One concern I have is that such an effort might in some ways compromise the Redhat compatibility. If changes had to be made to make a particular package build on the system itself, then might it be that future errata distributed by Redhat would no longer work as updates? Still, it might also serve as a justification for a fork in the road point to a new sweet spot distribution (e.g. as per some of the initial cAos goals). Thoughts? --Jed http://www.nersc.gov/~jed/ From canon at nersc.gov Fri Nov 14 12:50:44 2003 From: canon at nersc.gov (canon at nersc.gov) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:50:44 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Re: Rebuild adding "Builds from source!" value to distribution? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:06:35 PST." <4.3.2.7.2.20031114111847.05800530@imap4.lbl.gov> Message-ID: <200311142050.hAEKoitR018970@pookie.nersc.gov> Jed, My experience so far is that rebuilding, while not a walk-away and wait process, is still pretty straight forward. The only problems I've encountered with rebuliding 3.0AS is just getting the intial environment right and bootstrapping my way up. There are some minor tweaks that could be made to spec files to insure clean builds. Also, a build script that sets and ensures the correct environment and assists with dependencies would be handy. These things wouldn't break compatiblility. In fact, they may help assure it. My current challenge is to try to get a self consistent, convergent build. One that the previous build closely matches a subsequent build. I'm still seeing some problems here, but I think they are related to the environment. Has anyone else checked this? --Shane ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shane Canon voice: 510-486-6981 PSDF Project Lead fax: 510-486-7520 National Energy Research Scientific Computing Center 1 Cyclotron Road Mailstop 943-256 Berkeley, CA 94720 canon at nersc.gov ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > At 05:21 PM 11/14/2003 +0900, Joe Stevens wrote: > >Hello all-- > > > >I recently successfully rebuilt RedHat 3.0AS, and have a distro that is > >installable by ftp/http/nfs etc... > > > We have the cAos work, the White Box build, and certainly other work all > towards a RH enterprise "rebuild". From the discussions it seems quite > clear that this "rebuilding" business is nontrivial, with a fair amount of > work going into making the packages actually build - on some system. > > What I wanted to ask some of those involved is how much more work it might > seem to them to be able to build and distribute a system that would > ACTUALLY BUILD with no problems, gotchas, etc. ON ITSELF? > > What I'm thinking is that the problems with such simple rebuild efforts > seem to me in some sense to put a lie to the "open source" notion. That is > if the idea (an idea?) of "open source" is that you get the sources and, if > you need to, you can make minor modifications to the source and rebuild it > to suit your needs (as per Stallman's initial Xerox motivation), then if > the source build doesn't work as distributed, where is that value? > > This seems to me an area where the RHel rebuild effort might, at relatively > little cost (?), make a significant contribution to the open source > movement. I.e. this Rhel rebuild system could be more truly open source > than other distributions - e.g. Redhat and others - and (?) still include > the added value of tracking Redhat and conveying the value of the Redhat > integration efforts and a home for the Redhat refugees (e.g. like me). > > I'm thinking that essentially marketing a rebuild with this added value > (builds on itself from source RPMs!) would add appeal and draw attention to > such a rebuild distribution. That added value might make it more of a > gathering point (I'm looking for a new Linux "sweet spot" to replace Redhat > who seems to have abandoned the position to make a profit) for Linux > distributions. > > One concern I have is that such an effort might in some ways compromise the > Redhat compatibility. If changes had to be made to make a particular > package build on the system itself, then might it be that future errata > distributed by Redhat would no longer work as updates? Still, it might > also serve as a justification for a fork in the road point to a new sweet > spot distribution (e.g. as per some of the initial cAos goals). > > Thoughts? > > > --Jed http://www.nersc.gov/~jed/ > From vossenjp at netaxs.com Fri Nov 14 12:53:31 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:53:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Re: Rebuild adding "Builds from source!" value to distribution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Jed Donnelley wrote: > We have the cAos work, the White Box build, and certainly other work all > towards a RH enterprise "rebuild". From the discussions it seems quite > clear that this "rebuilding" business is nontrivial, with a fair amount of > work going into making the packages actually build - on some system. Yes! > What I wanted to ask some of those involved is how much more work it might > seem to them to be able to build and distribute a system that would > ACTUALLY BUILD with no problems, gotchas, etc. ON ITSELF? > I'm thinking that essentially marketing a rebuild with this added value > (builds on itself from source RPMs!) would add appeal and draw attention to > such a rebuild distribution. That added value might make it more of a > gathering point (I'm looking for a new Linux "sweet spot" to replace Redhat > who seems to have abandoned the position to make a profit) for Linux > distributions. Greg (cAos) will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is one of the goals of cAos, though that might not be obvious from the web site and existing discussions/docs. > One concern I have is that such an effort might in some ways compromise the > Redhat compatibility. If changes had to be made to make a particular > package build on the system itself, then might it be that future errata > distributed by Redhat would no longer work as updates? Still, it might > also serve as a justification for a fork in the road point to a new sweet > spot distribution (e.g. as per some of the initial cAos goals). That is, indeed, a concern. I believe cAos is a fork in that respect. Later, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From roger at infomed.sld.cu Fri Nov 14 13:01:48 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:01:48 -0500 Subject: [cAos] Rebuild adding "Builds from source!" value to distribution? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20031114111847.05800530@imap4.lbl.gov> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20031114111847.05800530@imap4.lbl.gov> Message-ID: <1068843708.3fb542bc77ad1@webmail.sld.cu> Mensaje citado por Jed Donnelley : > At 05:21 PM 11/14/2003 +0900, Joe Stevens wrote: > >Hello all-- > > > >I recently successfully rebuilt RedHat 3.0AS, and have a distro that is > >installable by ftp/http/nfs etc... > > > We have the cAos work, the White Box build, and certainly other work all > towards a RH enterprise "rebuild". From the discussions it seems quite > clear that this "rebuilding" business is nontrivial, with a fair amount of > work going into making the packages actually build - on some system. > i agry i'm working with the rebuild of rhel2.1 and i started working under rhl-7.2 and it was a pain until i rebuild again but this time under the proto-"rebuild" > What I wanted to ask some of those involved is how much more work it might > seem to them to be able to build and distribute a system that would > ACTUALLY BUILD with no problems, gotchas, etc. ON ITSELF? i think that a rebuild on itseft a less painfull thant build a rhel on a rhl, at least a lot less dependencies problems but i think that to have a list that order the packages during rebuild time will improve a procedure > > What I'm thinking is that the problems with such simple rebuild efforts > seem to me in some sense to put a lie to the "open source" notion. That is > if the idea (an idea?) of "open source" is that you get the sources and, if > you need to, you can make minor modifications to the source and rebuild it > to suit your needs (as per Stallman's initial Xerox motivation), then if > the source build doesn't work as distributed, where is that value? > > This seems to me an area where the RHel rebuild effort might, at relatively > little cost (?), make a significant contribution to the open source > movement. I.e. this Rhel rebuild system could be more truly open source > than other distributions - e.g. Redhat and others - and (?) still include > the added value of tracking Redhat and conveying the value of the Redhat > integration efforts and a home for the Redhat refugees (e.g. like me). > > I'm thinking that essentially marketing a rebuild with this added value > (builds on itself from source RPMs!) would add appeal and draw attention to > such a rebuild distribution. That added value might make it more of a > gathering point (I'm looking for a new Linux "sweet spot" to replace Redhat > who seems to have abandoned the position to make a profit) for Linux > distributions. > > One concern I have is that such an effort might in some ways compromise the > Redhat compatibility. If changes had to be made to make a particular > package build on the system itself, then might it be that future errata > distributed by Redhat would no longer work as updates? Still, it might > also serve as a justification for a fork in the road point to a new sweet > spot distribution (e.g. as per some of the initial cAos goals). > this is my primary concern about cAos, this is what keep me not 100% commit to cAos efort. sorry, i'm being complete sincere here, i don't know if cAos core developers can support cAos, i know that RedHat will release the update to RHEL so i can rebuild that package but what will happen with caos ? taking from : http://www.caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=54&op=page&SubMenu= "cAosel is looking to be a packaged form of the RHEL-Rebuild project. This can probably be maintained by a small to medium sized handful of developers and will pull directly from RHEL. We will remove all components of non-freely distributable code, and if needed replace it with a free counterpart. This will literally be a freely distributable drop in replacement for RHEL that will mirror their support errata (as long as RH does not change the source availability of their errata). " "cAosel will be both a solution for RH refugees and people that want the RHEL compatibility, but don't want the support, and do not wish to pay as well as offer a migration path to the community developed cAos." so, i'm with caos-el, core developers can count me for anything the need, incluiding web traslation ;-) will caos-el be marked as "closed" ? any comments/clarification will be wellcome thanks roger PD: sorry my bad english, it can introduce some misundertanding sometimes;-( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From jed at nersc.gov Fri Nov 14 13:45:45 2003 From: jed at nersc.gov (Jed Donnelley) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:45:45 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Re: Rebuild adding "Builds from source!" value to distribution? In-Reply-To: <200311142050.hAEKoitR018970@pookie.nersc.gov> References: <"Your message of Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:06:35 PST." <4.3.2.7.2.20031114111847.05800530@imap4.lbl.gov> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031114130056.057b7258@imap4.lbl.gov> At 12:50 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, canon at nersc.gov wrote: >Jed, > >My experience so far is that rebuilding, while not a walk-away >and wait process, is still pretty straight forward. The only >problems I've encountered with rebuilding 3.0AS is just getting >the initial environment right and bootstrapping my way up. >There are some minor tweaks that could be made to spec files >to insure clean builds. Also, a build script that sets and >ensures the correct environment and assists with dependencies >would be handy. These things wouldn't break compatibility. >In fact, they may help assure it. The "added value" that I was suggesting is to make it exactly a walk-away and wait process - for a build on the system itself. What system are your doing your builds on? I think it important (added value in the open source sense) that a "walk-away and wait" build can be done on the system itself. I don't see so much value perhaps in the ability to build the whole system (all packages in one go) on the system so much as the ability to build every package individually - though I believe the two notions tend to the same result. >My current challenge is to try to get a self consistent, convergent >build. One that the previous build closely matches a subsequent >build. I'm still seeing some problems here, but I think they >are related to the environment. Has anyone else checked this? The environment is certainly an important consideration. That's an aspect of the "Builds from source!" that of course must be carefully specified. Perhaps it's important to tie down a user (root?) under which the build on the system can be done directly with the environment as it exists on a base install of the system? I think Simon's suggestion of a "package" (literally a package?) to do the whole system build is an excellent one. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "self consistent, convergent" and "the previous build closely matches a subsequent build." When you say "closely matches", what sort of comparison are you doing? Binary compares of the rpms? If so, what measure of closeness are you using? Regarding: Jed: One concern I have is that such an effort might in some ways compromise the Redhat compatibility... VP Rosen replies: That is, indeed, a concern. I believe cAos is a fork in that respect. I believe Shane is saying above that he believes these two notions ("builds from source!" and compatible with Redhat) are not opposed. Certainly they are two important values that we can try to achieve simultaneously - at least until they appear in obvious conflict. Regarding: Jed: ...distribute a system that would ACTUALLY BUILD with no problems, gotchas, etc. ON ITSELF? Simon J Mudd wrote: >This implies a "package" which can do the build process which can >be installed on a particular box and which will finish "unattended". Specifically on a base build of the system itself in an existing environment on that system. Yes. That is what I believe will add value to the distribution on an open source sense that can be sold. Regarding: Simon J Mudd wrote: >In terms of making progress with the open source movement I?m not so >sure. we are toeing a close line to where RH will not want us to be, >and if they have to they can mess up the whole rebuild process, simply >by doing something as simple as using a non-free compiler (or similar) >or add lots of non-free RH tools which the rest of their environment >relies on. This is a key area where I believe Redhat needs to be faced with a clear choice. Either they continue to embrace the open source approach to software development - at least to benefit from it as they clearly do and not stand in the way of others benefiting from it - or they start erecting barriers to clear open source values. I believe "builds from source!" is a clear such open source value that can help clarify this choice. If Redhat was to start taking actions such as you note above (non-free compiler, etc.) then they will have made their intentions clear. At that point I believe a fork becomes a necessity - though as Shane suggests it may still be possible to benefit for some time by functional Redhat compatibility (mostly errata need essentially no mods) while still achieving this additional open source value. I see this "Redhat rebuild" effort as a pivotal juncture in the open source movement. It seems to me to be testing the limits of the GPL applicability. I think it important the everybody see as clearly as possible what the consequences of various policy choices (e.g. charge per box, per year licenses as Redhat is doing) on their viability in the open source community. --Jed http://www.nersc.gov/~jed/ From xose at wanadoo.es Sat Nov 15 11:38:37 2003 From: xose at wanadoo.es (Xose Vazquez Perez) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:38:37 +0100 Subject: [cAos] Re: High Availability Clustering Question from a Newbie Message-ID: <3FB680BD.5060802@wanadoo.es> hi, > I am interested in the High Availablility Clustering capabilities of RHEL > (2.1 or 3.0). These capabilities appear to be licensed under GPL through RH. > On the cAos site it wasn't immediately clear whether the RHEL cluster > management and ip load balancing software were to be included and if so in > which cAos-EL release. (Infact, I found a reference that mentioned cluster > computing to be a taboo topic for some reason.) RHEL 2.1 has cluster inside: http://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/i386/SRPMS/ But in RHEL 3 is a separate product: Cluster Suite for RHEL 3 -> http://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/3/en/RHCS/i386/SRPMS/ If somebody is interested in DS, aka eclipse, is here: Developer Suite for RHEL 3 -> http://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/3/en/RHDS/i386/SRPMS/ -- HTML mails are going to trash automagically From kuko at maarmas.com Mon Nov 17 06:42:30 2003 From: kuko at maarmas.com (Miguel Armas) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:42:30 +0000 Subject: [cAos] High Availability Clustering Question from a Newbie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311171442.30691.kuko@maarmas.com> On Wednesday 12 November 2003 23:16, Frank Overton wrote: > I am interested in the High Availablility Clustering capabilities of RHEL > (2.1 or 3.0). These capabilities appear to be licensed under GPL through > RH. On the cAos site it wasn't immediately clear whether the RHEL cluster > management and ip load balancing software were to be included and if so in > which cAos-EL release. (Infact, I found a reference that mentioned cluster > computing to be a taboo topic for some reason.) I'm building various HA related packages for the Fedora project, some of them are: - heartbeat from the Linux-HA (www.linux-ha.org) - EVMS with clustering extensions - OpenGFS - ENBD I'll build them under cAos as soon as I have one installed. BTW, is there any plan on a cAos-HA project? It would be great to have a special group working on this. Some of the previous packages needs kernel patches. We could have an "enterprise kernel" package with all the stable features... Salu2! -- -------------------------------------- Miguel Armas Consultor de Sistemas y Comunicaciones Ing. Tec. de Telecomunicaciones -------------------------------------- From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Nov 17 14:41:09 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:41:09 -0800 Subject: [cAos] High Availability Clustering Question from a Newbie In-Reply-To: <200311171442.30691.kuko@maarmas.com> References: <200311171442.30691.kuko@maarmas.com> Message-ID: <20031117224108.GA12082@runlevelzero.net> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:42:30PM +0000, Miguel Armas told me: > I'm building various HA related packages for the Fedora project, some of them > are: > - heartbeat from the Linux-HA (www.linux-ha.org) > - EVMS with clustering extensions > - OpenGFS > - ENBD > > I'll build them under cAos as soon as I have one installed. Very cool! > BTW, is there any plan on a cAos-HA project? It would be great to have a > special group working on this. Some of the previous packages needs kernel > patches. We could have an "enterprise kernel" package with all the stable > features... This is really a great idea! Hrmm, sounds like we have a volunteer! :) Seriously, I have started the cAos kernel, which is really a simplistic RPM SPEC wrapping a kernel.org kernel. It should be easy to build from that. Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Nov 17 14:44:11 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:44:11 -0800 Subject: [cAos] cAos at SuperComputing2003 Message-ID: <20031117224411.GB12082@runlevelzero.net> Anyone attending SC03, please come by the LBNL booth and say hello to me, Warewulf and cAos! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From lance at uklinux.net Mon Nov 17 16:22:37 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:22:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] cAos at SuperComputing2003 In-Reply-To: <20031117224411.GB12082@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Anyone attending SC03, please come by the LBNL booth and say hello to me, > Warewulf and cAos! and if you cant make it you can still read Greg's talk here :- http://scs.lbl.gov/html/reports/warewulf-SC2003.pdf Best of luck Greg. Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From kuko at maarmas.com Tue Nov 18 03:42:58 2003 From: kuko at maarmas.com (Miguel Armas) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:42:58 +0000 Subject: [cAos] High Availability Clustering Question from a Newbie In-Reply-To: <20031117224108.GA12082@runlevelzero.net> References: <200311171442.30691.kuko@maarmas.com> <20031117224108.GA12082@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <200311181142.58680.kuko@maarmas.com> On Monday 17 November 2003 22:41, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > BTW, is there any plan on a cAos-HA project? It would be great to have a > > special group working on this. Some of the previous packages needs kernel > > patches. We could have an "enterprise kernel" package with all the stable > > features... > > This is really a great idea! Hrmm, sounds like we have a volunteer! :) Who? you? ;-) (Yes I volunteer to work on the HA packages, but we need a LOT of testers...) > Seriously, I have started the cAos kernel, which is really a simplistic RPM > SPEC wrapping a kernel.org kernel. It should be easy to build from that. Is it published? are we going to use plain kernel.org kernels or the RH ones? It may be easier to patch plain kernels, but the RH ones are more suited for "certified" services.. Salu2! -- -------------------------------------- Miguel Armas Consultor de Sistemas y Comunicaciones Ing. Tec. de Telecomunicaciones -------------------------------------- From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 18 13:21:51 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:21:51 -0800 Subject: [cAos] High Availability Clustering Question from a Newbie In-Reply-To: <200311181142.58680.kuko@maarmas.com> References: <200311171442.30691.kuko@maarmas.com> <20031117224108.GA12082@runlevelzero.net> <200311181142.58680.kuko@maarmas.com> Message-ID: <20031118212151.GA27584@runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 11:42:58AM +0000, Miguel Armas told me: > > This is really a great idea! Hrmm, sounds like we have a volunteer! :) > > Who? you? ;-) > (Yes I volunteer to work on the HA packages, but we need a LOT of testers...) Sounds to me like we found our HA prject lead! lol > > Seriously, I have started the cAos kernel, which is really a simplistic RPM > > SPEC wrapping a kernel.org kernel. It should be easy to build from that. > > Is it published? are we going to use plain kernel.org kernels or the RH ones? > It may be easier to patch plain kernels, but the RH ones are more suited for > "certified" services.. http://runlevelzero.net/greg/caosity/workingdir/cAos-1/i386/creation/linux-2.4.21-7.caos/ http://runlevelzero.net/greg/caosity/workingdir/cAos-1/i386/creation/linux-smp-2.4.21-8.caos/ I have volunteered to maintain the kernel.org kernel (because I am not going to touch RH's kernel because of all of the patches). Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From parsley at linuxjedi.org Wed Nov 19 13:32:34 2003 From: parsley at linuxjedi.org (David L. Parsley) Date: 19 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0500 Subject: [cAos] Re: rebuild questions (Answered?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1069277555.18628.8.camel@linuxjedi.org> Hi Michael, I checked the output of 'rpm -qi tora' on RH9 and RHEL3 - same buildhost & same build time. Same with 'gettext'. I'm thinking Red Hat just used the RH9 versions of these packages. FYI, I just did a full rebuild of all my SRPMS on top of my first rebuild. The only things that didn't build: gnome-python2-1.99.14-5.src.rpm gstreamer-plugins-0.6.0-14.src.rpm pyOpenSSL-0.5.1-8.src.rpm redhat-config-language-1.0.14-2.src.rpm Which are _also_ identical to the RH9 versions. So... I'm thinking tomorrow I'll do a full rpmq with name, buildhost & build date, then see which packages are identical in RHEL and RH9. regards, David On Thu, 2003-11-13 at 08:30, Michael Redinger wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Michael Redinger wrote: > > > - My rebuilt gettext does not contain /usr/share/gettext/libintl.jar > > Can anybody reproduce this? Any ideas what is missing? > > I found that I have to tell configure where to find gcj: > GCJ=/usr/bin/gcj ./configure ... > How I add this to the SPEC file correctly? Does something like this work? > GCJ=/usr/bin/gcj %configure ... > > However, now I get an error - see below. > I have to confess that I do not know this Java stuff at all ... > can anyone help me with this one? > > > make[2]: Entering directory `/tmp/test/gettext-0.11.4/intl-java' > /bin/sh ../lib/javacomp.sh -d . ./gnu/gettext/GettextResource.java > /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/3.2.3/../../../crt1.o(.text+0x18): In function `_start': > : undefined reference to `main' > collect2: ld returned 1 exit status > make[2]: *** [gnu/gettext/GettextResource.class] Error 1 > make[2]: Leaving directory `/tmp/test/gettext-0.11.4/intl-java' > > Thanks, > Michael > > - -- > Michael Redinger > Zentraler Informatikdienst (Computer Centre) > Universitaet Innsbruck > Technikerstrasse 13 Tel.: ++43 512 507 2335 > 6020 Innsbruck Fax.: ++43 512 507 2944 > Austria Mail: Michael.Redinger at uibk.ac.at > BB98 D2FE 0F2C 2658 3780 3CB1 0FD7 A9D9 65C2 C11D > http://www.uibk.ac.at/~c102mr/mred-pubkey.asc > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/s4d2D9ep2WXCwR0RAu18AKDwXKIsAA6VxxbS4Tx7i0YUl6r+fwCfbQ7U > dYwWDzJvPrWudfcG1yjq/A4= > =8Dtr > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > rhel-rebuild mailing list > rhel-rebuild-l at uibk.ac.at > Hosted at the University of Innsbruck, Austria From csieh at fnal.gov Wed Nov 19 14:11:11 2003 From: csieh at fnal.gov (csieh) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:11:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] Re: rebuild questions (Answered?) In-Reply-To: <1069277555.18628.8.camel@linuxjedi.org> Message-ID: There are 275 rpms that are the exact same rpms as were released for RedHat 9. So in the release we are building I just used those. I just did a diff of the rpms in Enterprise 3 vs the ones in RedHat 9. If they were the same I moved them over to our new release. -Connie Sieh Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, David L. Parsley wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I checked the output of 'rpm -qi tora' on RH9 and RHEL3 - same buildhost > & same build time. Same with 'gettext'. I'm thinking Red Hat just used > the RH9 versions of these packages. > > FYI, I just did a full rebuild of all my SRPMS on top of my first > rebuild. The only things that didn't build: > gnome-python2-1.99.14-5.src.rpm > gstreamer-plugins-0.6.0-14.src.rpm > pyOpenSSL-0.5.1-8.src.rpm > redhat-config-language-1.0.14-2.src.rpm > > Which are _also_ identical to the RH9 versions. So... I'm thinking > tomorrow I'll do a full rpmq with name, buildhost & build date, then see > which packages are identical in RHEL and RH9. > > regards, > David > > On Thu, 2003-11-13 at 08:30, Michael Redinger wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Michael Redinger wrote: > > > > > - My rebuilt gettext does not contain /usr/share/gettext/libintl.jar > > > Can anybody reproduce this? Any ideas what is missing? > > > > I found that I have to tell configure where to find gcj: > > GCJ=/usr/bin/gcj ./configure ... > > How I add this to the SPEC file correctly? Does something like this work? > > GCJ=/usr/bin/gcj %configure ... > > > > However, now I get an error - see below. > > I have to confess that I do not know this Java stuff at all ... > > can anyone help me with this one? > > > > > > make[2]: Entering directory `/tmp/test/gettext-0.11.4/intl-java' > > /bin/sh ../lib/javacomp.sh -d . ./gnu/gettext/GettextResource.java > > /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/3.2.3/../../../crt1.o(.text+0x18): In function `_start': > > : undefined reference to `main' > > collect2: ld returned 1 exit status > > make[2]: *** [gnu/gettext/GettextResource.class] Error 1 > > make[2]: Leaving directory `/tmp/test/gettext-0.11.4/intl-java' > > > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > > - -- > > Michael Redinger > > Zentraler Informatikdienst (Computer Centre) > > Universitaet Innsbruck > > Technikerstrasse 13 Tel.: ++43 512 507 2335 > > 6020 Innsbruck Fax.: ++43 512 507 2944 > > Austria Mail: Michael.Redinger at uibk.ac.at > > BB98 D2FE 0F2C 2658 3780 3CB1 0FD7 A9D9 65C2 C11D > > http://www.uibk.ac.at/~c102mr/mred-pubkey.asc > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > > > iD8DBQE/s4d2D9ep2WXCwR0RAu18AKDwXKIsAA6VxxbS4Tx7i0YUl6r+fwCfbQ7U > > dYwWDzJvPrWudfcG1yjq/A4= > > =8Dtr > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > rhel-rebuild mailing list > > rhel-rebuild-l at uibk.ac.at > > Hosted at the University of Innsbruck, Austria > > > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > From trukulo at menta.net Wed Nov 19 14:34:54 2003 From: trukulo at menta.net (Miguel Angel Zarza) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:34:54 +0100 Subject: [cAos] I think this would be interesting for the installer Message-ID: <200311192334.54643.trukulo@menta.net> http://www2.uibk.ac.at/zid/software/unix/linux/rhel-rebuild.htm It explains how to build anaconda installer on CD for rhel from a rebuild, and other interesting things about rhel (2.1) rebuild. Read it and tell me anything. From parsley at linuxjedi.org Thu Nov 20 07:23:22 2003 From: parsley at linuxjedi.org (David L. Parsley) Date: 20 Nov 2003 10:23:22 -0500 Subject: [cAos] List of RH9 packages in RHEL Message-ID: <1069341802.18628.25.camel@linuxjedi.org> Hi all, I did an rpm -q --queryformat "%{NAME} %{BUILDHOST} %{BUILDTIME} %{SIZE}\n" for all the packages in RHEL3 ES and RH9, then cat'ed, sort'ed and uniq -d'ed it all to come up with the attached list of 275 packages which appear to be identical in the two. Not sure how I'll use this info, yet. regards, David -- David L. Parsley Network Systems Administrator, Alfred University "If I have seen further, it is by standing on ye shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton -------------- next part -------------- a2ps acl ami am-utils apel-xemacs apmd aspell-da aspell-de aspell-es aspell-fr aspell-it aspell-nl aspell-no aspell-pt_BR aspell-pt aspell-sv attr autoconf213 autoconf automake autorun basesystem bg5ps bitmap-fonts-cjk bitmap-fonts blas bridge-utils byacc caching-nameserver cdecl cdparanoia-libs cdparanoia cipe compat-pwdb compat-slang cpio crontabs ctags cvs dbskkd-cdb ddd dejagnu desktop-backgrounds-basic desktop-backgrounds-extra dev86 diffstat docbook-style-dsssl dos2unix dtach dump eject ElectricFence emacspeak enscript fam-devel fam fbset fetchmail file filesystem findutils flex fontilus fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi fonts-ISO8859-2 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi fonts-KOI8-R ftp gawk gdbm gdbm-devel gettext gftp ghostscript-fonts gimp-data-extras gimp-print-cups gimp-print-plugin gimp-print gimp-print-utils Glide3 gnome-audio gnome-media gnomemeeting gnome-mime-data gnome-python2-bonobo gnome-python2-canvas gnome-python2 gnome-python2-gtkhtml2 gnome-user-docs gnupg gnuplot gperf gphoto2 grub gtk2-engines gzip h2ps hpoj htmlview hwcrypto imlib-devel imlib indent jadetex jisksp14 jisksp16-1990 kappa20 kdoc kernel-pcmcia-cs lapack lftp libacl-devel libacl libao-devel libao libart_lgpl-devel libart_lgpl libattr-devel libattr libcap-devel libcap libdbi-dbd-mysql libdbi libglade2-devel libglade2 libgsf libmng-devel libmng libmrproject libole2-devel libole2 libpng10 libpng-devel libpng libtermcap-devel libtermcap libungif-devel libungif libusb-devel libusb libuser libuser-devel libvorbis libvorbis-devel linuxdoc-tools lslk lsof ltrace m4 make man-pages-cs man-pages-da man-pages-de man-pages-es man-pages-it man-pages-ko man-pages-pl man-pages-ru mdadm memprof mikmod mkbootdisk mktemp mpage mtr mx MySQL-python ncompress nc nedit nhpf Omni Omni-foomatic openjade openmotif21 open passwd patch pax pciutils-devel pciutils pcre-devel pcre pdksh perl-DateManip perl-DBD-MySQL perl-DBD-Pg perl-DBI perl-Filter perl-HTML-Parser perl-HTML-Tagset perl-libwww-perl perl-libxml-enno perl-libxml-perl perl-Parse-Yapp perl-SGMLSpm perl-Time-HiRes perl-URI perl-XML-Dumper perl-XML-Encoding perl-XML-Grove perl-XML-Parser perl-XML-Twig pinfo pnm2ppa procmail psacct psgml pxe pyOpenSSL pyorbit pyxf86config PyXML rarpd rcs rdate rdesktop readline-devel readline rmt rootfiles rwho sane-frontends setserial sgml-common shapecfg skkinput sox splint squirrelmail star startup-notification-devel startup-notification swig symlinks sysklogd taipeifonts talk tcp_wrappers tcsh tetex-afm tetex tetex-dvips tetex-fonts tetex-latex tetex-xdvi tftp tftp-server tmpwatch tora ttfprint unix2dos unixODBC-kde unixODBC utempter uucp vconfig vixie-cron vlock Wnn6-SDK-devel Wnn6-SDK words Xaw3d xdelta xfig xhtml1-dtds xinitrc xloadimage xml-common xsane-gimp xsane xsri zip From mhedemark at trueposition.com Thu Nov 20 07:51:11 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:51:11 -0500 Subject: [cAos] List of RH9 packages in RHEL Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514BB2@mail2.trueposition.com> David L. Parsley [mailto:parsley at linuxjedi.org] wrote: > I did an rpm -q --queryformat "%{NAME} %{BUILDHOST} %{BUILDTIME} > %{SIZE}\n" for all the packages in RHEL3 ES and RH9, then cat'ed, > sort'ed and uniq -d'ed it all to come up with the attached list of 275 > packages which appear to be identical in the two. Not sure > how I'll use > this info, yet. Good work! Can you run the same script against the updates perhaps? It might be the case that some of the RHEL 3 packages were lifted from the early Red Hat 9 updates, giving us an even greater list of packages that were directly lifted from Red Hat 9. From parsley at linuxjedi.org Thu Nov 20 08:04:55 2003 From: parsley at linuxjedi.org (David L. Parsley) Date: 20 Nov 2003 11:04:55 -0500 Subject: [cAos] List of RH9 packages in RHEL In-Reply-To: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514BB2@mail2.trueposition.com> References: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514BB2@mail2.trueposition.com> Message-ID: <1069344295.18628.31.camel@linuxjedi.org> On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 10:51, Hedemark, Magnus wrote: > David L. Parsley [mailto:parsley at linuxjedi.org] wrote: > > > I did an rpm -q --queryformat "%{NAME} %{BUILDHOST} %{BUILDTIME} > > %{SIZE}\n" for all the packages in RHEL3 ES and RH9, then cat'ed, > > sort'ed and uniq -d'ed it all to come up with the attached list of 275 > > packages which appear to be identical in the two. Not sure > > how I'll use > > this info, yet. > > > Good work! Can you run the same script against the updates perhaps? It > might be the case that some of the RHEL 3 packages were lifted from the > early Red Hat 9 updates, giving us an even greater list of packages that > were directly lifted from Red Hat 9. Ah, I guess I should have stated: this comparison was, in fact, done with the most up-to-date RH9 rpms as of yesterday (11-19). I maintain an up to date RH9 network install dir, but I don't keep around the old stuff. regards, David > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos From mhedemark at trueposition.com Thu Nov 20 08:08:29 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:08:29 -0500 Subject: [cAos] List of RH9 packages in RHEL Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514BB3@mail2.trueposition.com> David L. Parsley [mailto:parsley at linuxjedi.org] stated: > Ah, I guess I should have stated: this comparison was, in fact, done > with the most up-to-date RH9 rpms as of yesterday (11-19). I maintain > an up to date RH9 network install dir, but I don't keep around the old > stuff. OK then maybe RHEL has some *older* packages in common with RHEL than what was compared here. :) From csieh at fnal.gov Thu Nov 20 09:58:01 2003 From: csieh at fnal.gov (csieh) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:58:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] List of RH9 packages in RHEL In-Reply-To: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514BB3@mail2.trueposition.com> Message-ID: I did a comparison of the original RedHat 9 and the "a fully errata version of RedHat 9" vs Enterprise 3 AS. The only difference between the 2 versions of RedHat 9 were the original RedHat 9 had different versions of "gnupg" and "squirrelmail". This really seems to indicate that RedHat took these rpms from the "latest errata version of RedHat 9. -Connie Sieh Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Hedemark, Magnus wrote: > David L. Parsley [mailto:parsley at linuxjedi.org] stated: > > > Ah, I guess I should have stated: this comparison was, in fact, done > > with the most up-to-date RH9 rpms as of yesterday (11-19). I maintain > > an up to date RH9 network install dir, but I don't keep around the old > > stuff. > > OK then maybe RHEL has some *older* packages in common with RHEL than what > was compared here. :) > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > From lance at uklinux.net Thu Nov 20 15:47:28 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:47:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] fedora troubles :- Message-ID: http://www.fedora.info/fedora.htm The Cornell and Virginia teams have taken a number of steps to try to work with Red Hat regarding use of the name Fedora?. At this date, Red Hat has refused our request to withdraw its trademark applications and reverse its claims of usage restrictions on the name. Cornell University and the University of Virginia are now considering various legal options in response to Red Hat?s actions. Oops -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From herrold at owlriver.com Sun Nov 23 19:52:34 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:52:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] mailing lists update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Lance Davis wrote: > I have updated (renamed) some of the mailing lists and created some new > ones. > admin at caosity.org caos-project-admin at caosity.org ... snip ... > Comments welcome. Nice rationalization -- The prefix 'caos-' is sensible, and clears namespace for the security identity, and so forth. Possibly the proliferation of lists is a problem, but there is not an obvious solution other than discouraging cross-posting, and setting a procmail dupe lookback rule. -- Russ Herrold From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Nov 24 14:32:03 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:32:03 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Status and news... Message-ID: <20031124223203.GA1224@runlevelzero.net> Well, I am back from supercomputing 2003, but our house is under construction so I am not quite completely back in mind (ie we have no bedrooms or bathrooms). I will try to work remotely over the next few days, but keep in mind that I will still be hard to reach. If someone wants to help, and has nothing to do, please talk to Russ, Lance, or Rocky. There is lots to do. :) On the other side of the news, cAos was displayed at SC03 in the Warewulf demo. It got a fair amount of attention and people seemed generally very interested in the project! To answer the most frequently asked question I received at the show,... We are expecting to release cAos-GP and the network installer in about 2 weeks if everything goes smoothly. Last order of business is something that was brought up by several people at the show. There was a fair amount of confusion that people had with the name, and concerns expressed with the dilution of the name (one name used to specify 2 projects). After some thought, I propose the following: cAos = Original project that I proposed (the community maintained distro) " Core: Core component of the distro that is maintained by the core cAos group. " Community: Packages maintained by the community on top of the core The Enterprise Linux rebuild can then be named more accordingly (ie. Community Enterprise Linux). Something that would be fun is a spin off from DOTNET as DOTCOM(munity) for the site portals, etc... The final decision will not be made for about a week, so if you have thoughts or concerns on the issue, they should be discussed. Thanks! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 25 23:42:33 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:42:33 -0800 Subject: [cAos] buildroot updated Message-ID: <20031126074233.GA9283@runlevelzero.net> I just updated the buildroot with the latest rpm with the caos patches, modutils, and some other various packages... You will need to also s/redhat/caos/ in the ORCbuild* scripts. Thanks Denis! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Nov 25 23:46:55 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:46:55 -0800 Subject: [cAos] buildroot updated In-Reply-To: <20031126074233.GA9283@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031126074233.GA9283@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031126074655.GB9283@runlevelzero.net> BTW, I should mention that if people want to start building packages for cAos the buildroot is obtainable. Please forward me an email with the IP address of your downloading system (or gateway) and I will grant you rsync access. Also, if someone wants to start documenting the build process I am sure it would be greatly appreciated by all. Greg On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 11:42:33PM -0800, Greg Kurtzer told me: > I just updated the buildroot with the latest rpm with the caos patches, > modutils, and some other various packages... You will need to also > s/redhat/caos/ in the ORCbuild* scripts. > > Thanks Denis! > > Greg > -- > Greg M. Kurtzer > http://runlevelzero.net/ > http://caosity.org/ > http://warewulf-cluster.org/ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Nov 26 00:20:29 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:20:29 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Yet another _FINAL_ cAos build... Message-ID: <20031126082029.GA443@runlevelzero.net> I just initiated another final cAos build. This is a build of every package currently in the distribution. The goal here is to be able to build all packages in a self hosting manner (building the OS on the same OS exclusively). On the last round we were at about 85%. Unfortunately this number will probably go down once we enable the missing files terminate build option in rpmbuild. Progress can be monitored at (packages are being built in alpha order): http://www.runlevelzero.net/greg/caosity/workingdir/cAos-1/i386/creation/ The roadmap is as follows: 1. Get all packages to build on self hosting OS 2. Populate repository and buildroot with freshly built packages 3. Rebuild entire OS again 4. Finish cleanup and scriptlets in network floppy installer 5. Beta release 1 6. Document the package maintainer HOWTO 7. Fix the temple so package maintainers can upload packages 8. Prepare the site and documentation for 1.0 9. Complete any outstanding action items 10. Build a Q/A voting system for packages 11. Build a donation/payment web application (maybe start using paypal?) 12. Release of 1.0 Right now we are still completing #1, but once we get past that, the rest should start moving much quicker. #6-11 can be done in parallel to #1-5, so if you would like to help in these areas, please stand up. For all of those people that have expressed interest in helping, here is a major opportunity. Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Nov 26 00:53:59 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:53:59 -0800 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos Message-ID: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> Sorry, for sending so much email... I think this will be the last of the evening/morning. I have had a lot of people mention to me that they _need_ a stable OS, and they want a guarantee that cAos will be around for years to come before they install on mission critical servers. I totally understand this, and I have some thoughts on this. First of all, it is a totally valid request to want stability in an OS. The first thing that I care to mention is that community OS's (if they survive the burn out phase) are inherently more stable then corporate solutions, but with that said a project like this will _need_ an influx of money to keep it moving strong. The question is how to bring in money without alienating the community. To use cAos there will be a license. The license is so incredibly inexpensive that anyone can afford it, and it is not enforced (meaning we will _never_ audit a system looking for proof of licenses). We have been thinking of $12/system per year. Now because I play with HPC clusters, I feel strongly that the definition of a system is up to the purchaser. for example, a cluster of 1000 homogeneous nodes may be considered 1 system or 1001. This means that a 1000 node cluster may be $12/year, $12K/year or somewhere in between. Wording specifics of this license will have to be hammered out, but the important point is that it will not be audited! Help here would be appreciated. Now, what will we do with these funds. First of all we want to file as a non-profit so that all costs are tax deductible. All developers will be set up as independent consultants and as people pay for their licenses, the funds will be redirected to the developers. Once developers and infrastructure has been payed for, the leftover $$ will be redistributed to other open source projects that cAos includes in the distribution. This will help ensure not only cAos itself, but also other OSS projects. So why pay for the license? - Extremely low overhead (all payed goes right into development and infrastructure) - Votes will be held as to the direction of cAos, and redistribution of funds. Each license gets one vote (so a large paying institution gets a large say in the direction and future of cAos) - Allows us to maintain the OS properly and provide security updates quickly - Will be used for WWW hosting and other infrastructure - Tax deduction ;) So these are my thoughts quickly written out. Now please hack away at them, and provide feedback. Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From caosity at tomseeley.co.uk Wed Nov 26 02:56:43 2003 From: caosity at tomseeley.co.uk (Tom Seeley) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:56:43 +0000 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <1069844203.3fc486ebac782@www.karenhudson.co.uk> Quoting Greg Kurtzer : > To use cAos there will be a license. The license is so incredibly > inexpensive that anyone can afford it, and it is not enforced (meaning we > will _never_ audit a system looking for proof of licenses). We have been > thinking of $12/system per year. I'm not a fan of using the word 'license' but I'd be happy to pay $12/year. Probably a bit more. 'License' implies (to me anyway) a requirement to pay for the legal right to use the software, which I didn't think this project was about. NB, I'm just saying I'm not a fan, as long as its well worded and explained properly on the website, I can live with buying a cAos 'license'. > So why pay for the license? > > - Extremely low overhead (all payed goes right into development and > infrastructure) > - Votes will be held as to the direction of cAos, and redistribution of > funds. Each license gets one vote (so a large paying institution gets > a large say in the direction and future of cAos) > - Allows us to maintain the OS properly and provide security updates > quickly > - Will be used for WWW hosting and other infrastructure > - Tax deduction ;) I like the buying votes idea in principle (I never thought I'd see myself typing that). Although I'm not convinced such votes should be binding on the developers, perhaps more like a formal poll, than a vote? How about restricting direct downloads (ftp) of the iso's to people who've contributed (bought a license)? - everyone else has to use bittorrent/edonkey etc. (to save on infrastructure costs). As I intend to pay for cAos, I'd rather not sub those that don't (anymore than necessary). -- Tom Seeley. From jim at rossberry.com Wed Nov 26 05:42:34 2003 From: jim at rossberry.com (Jim Wildman) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:42:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: <1069844203.3fc486ebac782@www.karenhudson.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Tom Seeley wrote: > I'm not a fan of using the word 'license' but I'd be happy to pay $12/year. > Probably a bit more. I propose "support subscription" or "support cost defrayment contribution". > > How about restricting direct downloads (ftp) of the iso's to people who've > contributed (bought a license)? - everyone else has to use bittorrent/edonkey > etc. (to save on infrastructure costs). As I intend to pay for cAos, I'd rather > not sub those that don't (anymore than necessary). This would be a nice added benefit. Very similar to what RH has done (RHN subscribers get better bandwidth than the ftp.redhat.com folks, supposedly). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE jim at rossberry.com http://www.rossberry.com From sinner at escomposlinux.org Wed Nov 26 05:50:43 2003 From: sinner at escomposlinux.org (Sinner from the Prairy) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:50:43 -0500 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: <1069844203.3fc486ebac782@www.karenhudson.co.uk> References: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> <1069844203.3fc486ebac782@www.karenhudson.co.uk> Message-ID: <200311260850.47861.sinner@escomposlinux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greg's idea sounds very sensible. I belive that the non-profit is a good one. Then, in the non-profit charter's, we will need to stress the goals and long-term compromise (hence, this is why cAos will become a foundation or something similar) About the price, maybe we could also be more flexible. Offer a choice: $6/year for special circunstances (developing countries?) and 1 vote $12/year as standard and 1 vote $24/year per double votes $60/year per triple votes ...and so on Or somethigng similar. So, if someone wants to put more money in the foundation, there's a explicit way to do it. On Wednesday 26 November 2003 05:565am, Tom Seeley wrote: > 'License' implies (to me anyway) a requirement to pay for the legal > right to use the software, which I didn't think this project was > about. Then, we need lawyer support. Some way to reword those terms so everybody is happy, including lawyers. EFF anyone? > How about restricting direct downloads (ftp) of the iso's to people > who've contributed (bought a license)? - everyone else has to use > bittorrent/edonkey etc. (to save on infrastructure costs). As I > intend to pay for cAos, I'd rather not sub those that don't (anymore > than necessary). This sounds very good. Something like this is what MandrakeClub is doing. And it's a smart and good move. Ask a Mandrake user, and they will tell you that they like it. My 2 cents. Salut, Sinner - -- http://www.ibiblio.org/sinner/ Linux User # 89976 Testing Mandrake 9.2 - Linux Machine # 38068 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/xK+2SGQa4/zQ9e8RAv5OAJwIg9mWrfnXrchXM/WWviaii/9BaACbBZd5 HP65CmVb/ihfgSqi22GA+9g= =nfqN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From roger at infomed.sld.cu Wed Nov 26 05:53:56 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:53:56 -0500 Subject: [cAos] buildroot updated In-Reply-To: <20031126074655.GB9283@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031126074233.GA9283@runlevelzero.net> <20031126074655.GB9283@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <1069854836.3fc4b07499d01@webmail.sld.cu> Mensaje citado por Greg Kurtzer : > BTW, I should mention that if people want to start building packages for cAos > the buildroot is obtainable. Please forward me an email with the IP address of > your downloading system (or gateway) and I will grant you rsync access. > > Also, if someone wants to start documenting the build process I am sure it > would be greatly appreciated by all. > i can make traslation if you like (english -> spanish) also i'm very intered in that documentation because i'm having problem making rebuilds cu roger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From mhedemark at trueposition.com Wed Nov 26 05:57:26 2003 From: mhedemark at trueposition.com (Hedemark, Magnus) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:57:26 -0500 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos Message-ID: <9E72DA54A657354DAE751492248657C9514C06@mail2.trueposition.com> For the record, I'm not fond of calling it a license. In fact it may be kind of hairy considering most of what we're using is GPL. If we're going to use the Debian social contract, perhaps we should model much of the rest of the project after Debian. After all, Debian has been around a long time, and they seem to have a loyal following of people giving donations and buying CD's voluntarily. Also, I do think starting an official non-profit org is a *good* thing. This makes it more attractive for companies and individuals to *donate*, because then the donation becomes a tax deduction. Many organizations can/will only donate to official non-profits. From jim at rossberry.com Wed Nov 26 06:16:21 2003 From: jim at rossberry.com (Jim Wildman) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:16:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Yet another _FINAL_ cAos build... In-Reply-To: <20031126082029.GA443@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Progress can be monitored at (packages are being built in alpha order): > > http://www.runlevelzero.net/greg/caosity/workingdir/cAos-1/i386/creation/ > In looking at uname.txt I see we are building on the e.16 kernel. Any reason for not using the e.27 release? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE jim at rossberry.com http://www.rossberry.com From james at buszard-welcher.com Wed Nov 26 06:27:48 2003 From: james at buszard-welcher.com (James Welcher) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:27:48 -0500 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: References: <1069844203.3fc486ebac782@www.karenhudson.co.uk> Message-ID: <16324.47204.199077.102160@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> [edited for content to fit your screen, some comments deleted but not to alter meaning and no word order has been changed, see thread for full original emails.] >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Wildman writes: >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Kurtzer writes: >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Seeley writes: Greg> I have had a lot of people mention to me that they _need_ a Greg> stable OS, and they want a guarantee that cAos will be around Greg> for years to come before they install on mission critical Greg> servers. I totally understand this, and I have some thoughts on this. Greg> First of all, it is a totally valid request to want stability Greg> in an OS. The first thing that I care to mention is that Greg> community OS's (if they survive the burn out phase) are Greg> inherently more stable then corporate solutions, but with Greg> that said a project like this will _need_ an influx of money Greg> to keep it moving strong. Greg> The question is how to bring in money without alienating the Greg> community. Greg> To use cAos there will be a license. The license is so Greg> incredibly inexpensive that anyone can afford it, and it is Greg> not enforced (meaning we will _never_ audit a system looking Greg> for proof of licenses). We have been thinking of $12/system Greg> per year. Tom> I'm not a fan of using the word 'license' but I'd be happy to Tom> pay $12/year. Probably a bit more. Tom> 'License' implies (to me anyway) a requirement to pay for the Tom> legal right to use the software, which I didn't think this Tom> project was about. Tom> NB, I'm just saying I'm not a fan, as long as its well worded Tom> and explained properly on the website, I can live with buying Tom> a cAos 'license'. Jim> I propose "support subscription" or "support cost defrayment Jim> contribution". I agree that "license" is a loaded term and sounds remarkably like what Red Hat is now doing. The idea that people need a stable OS and a guarantee that cAos will be around for years to come seems to be one of trust that "these cAos folk are well-organized and not some fly-by-night org that is going to drop out of existence." That is, it is a matter of trust and reputation. I'm not sure that selling stuff for money brings in trust and a good reputation (i.e. Enron, M$). That said, I'm a capitalist. I think you should separate the need for money from the "trust" issue. I think the "trust" is going to sort itself out over time. Maybe there are some "corporate" users who _need_ a license (for some internal policy reason). That's a different issue from _needing_ a guarantee of longevity. The license requirement can be resolved by selling THEM a license, but I don't think you should stipulate that cAos is shareware and that one should feel obligated to pay for it. Of course, people who WANT to pay for can be encouraged to so, but I wouldn't say that each copy of cAos needs a "license" that "won't be enforced". That sounds, um, not trust worthy. It sounds not trust worthy because you are ASKING for TRUST. My Grandpappy told me when people say "trust me", maybe you don't want to. [ED. NOTE: Ok, not only did my Grandpappy not say that, I never called him "grandpappy".] I would suggest that you check out the models used by some organizations other than Red Hat or Micro$oft. Check out the *BSDs. OpenBSD has a very restrictive download arrangement to encourage CDROM sales, which are a big part of their income. FreeBSD also sells CDROMs (sometimes they even show up at places like Fry's). FreeBSD also has a history of "Corporate Sugar Daddies" wherein they get funding from some corporation with a vested interested in their project. They did pretty well with Walnut Creek CDROM for a while there. I think they are getting help from a little place known as Apple now. FreeBSD also has/had a nice subscription service wherein you pay for monthly cuts of the development branch and a copy of the stable branch whenever it comes out. You pay once a year or whatever and the CDs just keep showing up in the mail. Also, many of these other organizations sell T-Shirts, Hats, and stuffed mascots as well as CDROM. This is more work than selling a "license". Howevewr, seeing people at trade shows in cAos T-shirts and seeing cAos CDROMs on peoples' tables at conferences or users groups or (even) at Fry's will actually genuinely increase the "trust" people have in cAos as a long-lived and stable organization. Commentary Worth: approximately $0.02 James From rocky at atipa.com Wed Nov 26 07:22:44 2003 From: rocky at atipa.com (Rocky McGaugh) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:22:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: I still like the 'certificate' as listed on caosity.org. Where do i buy my snake cap? I'll take two of those 5" round snake stickers too, and 5 or 6 case badges... about selling bandwidth: i dunno...i'd think a $12 user could use more bandwidth than that. I dont truly know how much bandwidth costs though. how much money do various people involved in the project already have invested? I can toss some in to help. Is there currently any overhead? -- Rocky McGaugh Atipa Technologies rocky at atipatechnologies.com rmcgaugh at atipa.com 1-785-841-9513 x3110 http://67.8450073/ perl -e 'print unpack(u, ".=W=W+F%T:7\!A+F-O;0H`");' From lance at uklinux.net Wed Nov 26 08:03:16 2003 From: lance at uklinux.net (Lance Davis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:03:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Rocky McGaugh wrote: > I still like the 'certificate' as listed on caosity.org. > > Where do i buy my snake cap? I'll take two of those 5" round snake > stickers too, and 5 or 6 case badges... are we settled on the logo .... > about selling bandwidth: i dunno...i'd think a $12 user could use more > bandwidth than that. I dont truly know how much bandwidth costs though. > > > how much money do various people involved in the project already have > invested? I can toss some in to help. Is there currently any overhead? uklinux are sponsoring the server , that runs at about $200 per month, athough we are moving it shortly at about the same cost. I dont know if any other costs. Can you get us some downloadables for caosel1 or caosel2 ??? I have a server ready to take them ..... Regards Lance -- uklinux.net - The ISP of choice for the discerning Linux user. From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Nov 26 10:36:38 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:36:38 -0800 Subject: [cAos] buildroot updated In-Reply-To: <1069854836.3fc4b07499d01@webmail.sld.cu> References: <20031126074233.GA9283@runlevelzero.net> <20031126074655.GB9283@runlevelzero.net> <1069854836.3fc4b07499d01@webmail.sld.cu> Message-ID: <20031126183638.GA28645@runlevelzero.net> On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 08:53:56AM -0500, Roger Pe?a Escobio told me: > i can make traslation if you like (english -> spanish) Very nice! The moment we release, we should chat about the translation to the installer and docos. ;) > also i'm very intered in that documentation because i'm having problem making rebuilds Hopefully soon you won't have to worry about doing the rebuild! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Nov 26 10:42:32 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:42:32 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Yet another _FINAL_ cAos build... In-Reply-To: References: <20031126082029.GA443@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20031126184232.GB28645@runlevelzero.net> On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 09:16:21AM -0500, Jim Wildman told me: > In looking at uname.txt I see we are building on the e.16 kernel. Any > reason for not using the e.27 release? Nice catch. You are right, and this needs to be updated. Once we get the beta, I will be rebuilding the build box. Right now it is building on a rebuilt AS2.1. We have not upgraded the kernel, because none of us have been able to get the RHAS kernel erratas to compile (we think they are broke). In any case, soon it will be running cAos. Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From geoff at galitz.org Wed Nov 26 11:22:25 2003 From: geoff at galitz.org (Geoff Galitz) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:22:25 -0800 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> References: <20031126085359.GB443@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: Hi gang... sorry I've been MIA for a while... My general thoughts are thus: I think it would a good idea to head back to a shareware approach (without the nagware) and simply ask people and organizations to donate what they think is an appropriate monetary amount or some equivalent (such as mirrors, hardware, tools, or even some less-than-completely free tools provided as free on cAos). For organizations that need help figuring out what is appropriate, then we recommend a nice baseline. Something like a one time $10 or $20 donation per CPU or per chassis or whatever. Among the reason I feel this way: - I feel that if the components are meant to be free and may implicate a security issue (updates) then the components must be as free and as widely distributable via any and all means as possible. - Just the other day I declined to do a test OpenBSD install because I could not download an ISO because the ISO's are available *after* you pay them. I don't really have a problem with that in general, but in this era of limited funds (I work for the state) I really feel better if I can try before I buy. - Going the shareware route (with a suggested baseline for beancounters) seems to fit in more nicely with my idea of what a community approach is about. The project will survive purely on the merits whether it is useful to folks. Another general comment, I think we need to go "open" in terms of decision making and with the cash. Again, working for the state as I do, and seeing good money (taxes) evaporate and good money (business income ala accounting scandals and what not) becomming misrouted we need to do something to make our contributors feel comfortable how and where money gets directed. I can help here as I volunteered to Greg the other day to help find a lawyer to begin exploration of this non-profit status, which is on-going. But I felt it was important to bring up in since we are talking about money. For all I know, my ideas may prove unworkable in a non-profit environment. Lastly, I also agree with earlier statements about staying from away restrictions in any form of licensing. Just some general thoughts... perhaps useful, perhaps not. -geoff On Nov 26, 2003, at 12:53 AM, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Sorry, for sending so much email... I think this will be the last of > the > evening/morning. > > I have had a lot of people mention to me that they _need_ a stable OS, > and > they want a guarantee that cAos will be around for years to come > before they > install on mission critical servers. I totally understand this, and I > have > some thoughts on this. > > First of all, it is a totally valid request to want stability in an > OS. The > first thing that I care to mention is that community OS's (if they > survive the > burn out phase) are inherently more stable then corporate solutions, > but with > that said a project like this will _need_ an influx of money to keep > it moving > strong. > > The question is how to bring in money without alienating the community. > > To use cAos there will be a license. The license is so incredibly > inexpensive that anyone can afford it, and it is not enforced (meaning > we > will _never_ audit a system looking for proof of licenses). We have > been > thinking of $12/system per year. > > Now because I play with HPC clusters, I feel strongly that the > definition of > a system is up to the purchaser. for example, a cluster of 1000 > homogeneous > nodes may be considered 1 system or 1001. This means that a 1000 node > cluster > may be $12/year, $12K/year or somewhere in between. > > Wording specifics of this license will have to be hammered out, but the > important point is that it will not be audited! Help here would be > appreciated. > > Now, what will we do with these funds. First of all we want to file as > a > non-profit so that all costs are tax deductible. All developers will > be set up > as independent consultants and as people pay for their licenses, the > funds > will be redirected to the developers. Once developers and > infrastructure has > been payed for, the leftover $$ will be redistributed to other open > source > projects that cAos includes in the distribution. This will help ensure > not > only cAos itself, but also other OSS projects. > > So why pay for the license? > > - Extremely low overhead (all payed goes right into development and > infrastructure) > - Votes will be held as to the direction of cAos, and > redistribution of > funds. Each license gets one vote (so a large paying institution > gets > a large say in the direction and future of cAos) > - Allows us to maintain the OS properly and provide security updates > quickly > - Will be used for WWW hosting and other infrastructure > - Tax deduction ;) > > > So these are my thoughts quickly written out. Now please hack away at > them, > and provide feedback. > > Greg > -- > Greg M. Kurtzer > http://runlevelzero.net/ > http://caosity.org/ > http://warewulf-cluster.org/ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at caosity.org > http://www.caosity.org/mailman/listinfo/caos > From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Nov 26 11:51:06 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:51:06 -0800 Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos In-Reply-To: <16324.47204.199077.102160@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> References: <1069844203.3fc486ebac782@www.karenhudson.co.uk> <16324.47204.199077.102160@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> Message-ID: <20031126195106.GC28645@runlevelzero.net> On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 09:27:48AM -0500, James Welcher told me: > [edited for content to fit your screen, some comments deleted > but not to alter meaning and no word order has been changed, > see thread for full original emails.] Yea. What he said. ;) > Tom> I'm not a fan of using the word 'license' but I'd be happy to > Tom> pay $12/year. Probably a bit more. > > Tom> 'License' implies (to me anyway) a requirement to pay for the > Tom> legal right to use the software, which I didn't think this > Tom> project was about. > > Tom> NB, I'm just saying I'm not a fan, as long as its well worded > Tom> and explained properly on the website, I can live with buying > Tom> a cAos 'license'. > > Jim> I propose "support subscription" or "support cost defrayment > Jim> contribution". > > I agree that "license" is a loaded term and sounds remarkably like > what Red Hat is now doing. Agreed. Possiabilities are: Subscription Certificate Contributation > The idea that people need a stable OS and a guarantee that cAos will > be around for years to come seems to be one of trust that "these cAos > folk are well-organized and not some fly-by-night org that is going to > drop out of existence." That is, it is a matter of trust and > reputation. I'm not sure that selling stuff for money brings in trust > and a good reputation (i.e. Enron, M$). Agreed. > That said, I'm a capitalist. I think you should separate the need for > money from the "trust" issue. I think the "trust" is going to sort > itself out over time. Maybe there are some "corporate" users who > _need_ a license (for some internal policy reason). That's a different > issue from _needing_ a guarantee of longevity. The license requirement > can be resolved by selling THEM a license, but I don't think you > should stipulate that cAos is shareware and that one should feel > obligated to pay for it. Agreed. > Of course, people who WANT to pay for can be encouraged to so, but I > wouldn't say that each copy of cAos needs a "license" that "won't be > enforced". That sounds, um, not trust worthy. It sounds not trust > worthy because you are ASKING for TRUST. My Grandpappy told me when > people say "trust me", maybe you don't want to. [ED. NOTE: Ok, not > only did my Grandpappy not say that, I never called him "grandpappy".] Grandpa is a wise fella. > I would suggest that you check out the models used by some > organizations other than Red Hat or Micro$oft. Check out the *BSDs. > > OpenBSD has a very restrictive download arrangement to encourage CDROM > sales, which are a big part of their income. FreeBSD also sells CDROMs > (sometimes they even show up at places like Fry's). FreeBSD also has a > history of "Corporate Sugar Daddies" wherein they get funding from > some corporation with a vested interested in their project. They did > pretty well with Walnut Creek CDROM for a while there. I think they > are getting help from a little place known as Apple now. > > FreeBSD also has/had a nice subscription service wherein you pay for > monthly cuts of the development branch and a copy of the stable branch > whenever it comes out. You pay once a year or whatever and the CDs > just keep showing up in the mail. > > Also, many of these other organizations sell T-Shirts, Hats, and > stuffed mascots as well as CDROM. All above ideas or good, but I don't want to limit redistribution. > This is more work than selling a "license". Howevewr, seeing people at > trade shows in cAos T-shirts and seeing cAos CDROMs on peoples' tables > at conferences or users groups or (even) at Fry's will actually > genuinely increase the "trust" people have in cAos as a long-lived and > stable organization. This would be cool. Does anyone have any insite here on getting cAos shwag? ;) Thanks! -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From roger at infomed.sld.cu Wed Nov 26 12:23:28 2003 From: roger at infomed.sld.cu (Roger =?iso-8859-1?b?UGXxYQ==?= Escobio) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:23:28 -0500 Subject: [cAos] why autoreqprov is set in the as2.1 kernel spec? Message-ID: <1069878208.3fc50bc029844@webmail.sld.cu> hi does anybody knows why the autoreqprov tag is set in the kernel section of the kernel.spec file ? i think that is the reason why the kernel package not announce that it provides libredhat-kernel file why is important that kernel-2.4.9-e.x.i386.rpm not announce that it provides that file ? big thanks to anyone that can give me a hint roger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nodo central de la red Infomed (http://www.sld.cu) Usuario linux: 97152 (http://counter.li.org) Miembro del grupo de coordinacion de LinuxCuba (http://www.linux.cu) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado usando el servicio de correo en web de Infomed http://webmail.sld.cu From jed at nersc.gov Wed Nov 26 12:36:46 2003 From: jed at nersc.gov (Jed Donnelley) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:36:46 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Funding cAos - R.e. the cost of cAos - road to success? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031126104943.04b94ea8@imap4.lbl.gov> Yesterday Greg Kurtzer wrote: "...a project like this will _need_ an influx of money to keep it moving strong. The question is how to bring in money without alienating the community. To use cAos there will be a license. The license is so incredibly inexpensive that anyone can afford it, and it is not enforced (meaning we will _never_ audit a system looking for proof of licenses). We have been thinking of $12/system per year." I believe a per box (or CPU) licensing fee will doom cAos to failure. In many ways it doesn't matter the cost of the license. Once it is $1, that $1 is $1 too much. It creates a financial transaction overhead that will keep enough people from using the software to kill any chance it has to survive in the community. In my opinion it was exactly the free nature of the Redhat software that made it so successful - and will ultimately doom their new model in the open source community. People can't just pull it down and try it, add it to other systems, backup/test systems, etc., etc. One can argue that Redhat's pricing is too high, but I don't believe competing on a price basis with that model is viable for a startup effort like cAos. When considered from an institutional perspective, charging anything immediately puts the software into the realm of requiring additional administrative overhead. I figure it costs me at least $50 to buy a $7 IEEE 1394 cable (to use a recent example) at LBL just because of the cost getting it paid for. I often end up buying such things myself and donating them to the Lab, but that gets a bit old after a while. As a system administrator I would have little to no interest in going through the administrative hassle to pay for cAos on a per box/CPU basis. This problem would compound the difficulty that people wanting to test the system have no legitimate way to get the software, etc., etc. I believe the direction to look for income is where Redhat looked so successfully before they became (in my opinion) bloated on overheated .com funding - namely services. The most important thing I want to see from an open source OS distribution is support. Not support in the sense of somebody to talk to, but support in the sense of quick security/bug fixes and easy access to updates. In my opinion something like the Redhat network makes good sense, perhaps enough cents? Remember, this is still just software running on a server somewhere - it doesn't take people time except to write and support the service. Here's a blue sky suggestion. Provide a Redhat network-like support service for which you charge, say, $50/year to have a login and be known. Say that gets you service for 5 systems (plenty for a personal workstation, test systems, etc.). To get up to 5-100 systems you need to pay an additional $50/year. Beyond 100 systems costs another $100/year (e.g. clusters if they want individual entries in a database) - just an initial idea - feel free to go wild inventing models that might work for clusters. Perhaps additionally you could offer the option (sort of along the lines of Microsoft update - I'm not trying to invent new models here) of an anonymous update service on a per system basis for, say, 5 years for a fixed initial "purchase" fee (say $10-$20). This would be based on a serial number in the system that could be moved from box to box, with the back end looking askance at too many requests from different IP addresses for the same serial number. Such a model could leverage essentially the same support infrastructure and might appeal to people who want to be able to "buy" the software for a one time price and get it supported for a long enough time that they don't have to worry about it for a while (change the price, change the years of support...). Such approaches would let students and do-it-yourselfers use the software for free. I believe this is critical to success. It would also provide some income for services that are valuable to and visible to the end users. They can see what they are paying for - rather than seeming to pay for "free software" that is developed by the community (even though we know there are costs to putting together and supporting a distribution). I believe the per box/CPU licensing model will not work for any software that doesn't already have the sort of market position that Microsoft or Redhat already have. I believe such issues will make or break a project such as cAos. I also feel that the name and timing are important. On both those scores I see cAos now at a distinct disadvantage vs. something like White Box Linux: http://whiteboxlinux.org/ They don't seem to have an income model (yet), but they already have a nice catchy name that doesn't suggest disorder, AND they have a system available - regardless of immediate technical concerns. They are already developing a community. I believe the back-end support service is the key to success (after all, there are already many other Linux distributions available that in some sense compete with the White Box Linux), so I still see an opportunity available. However, I believe that for cAos to be successful it needs to quickly get beyond an initial build and provide something in the service area to attract users and, hopefully soon, income. I believe the only viable road to success for cAos would be to focus effort on such a service, get it up soon, and actively market it. I would suggest coming up with a name for the service that suggests more in the way of order and stability (to contrast with and bring order to the "cAos" of the open source development world). A tall order I admit. I just thought I'd share my thoughts. --Jed http://www.nersc.gov/~jed/ From vossenjp at netaxs.com Wed Nov 26 16:07:36 2003 From: vossenjp at netaxs.com (JP Vossen) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:07:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] the cost of cAos Message-ID: FWIW, I like the certificate idea. 'License' and 'subscription' are too loaded, esp. with the RH mess, and general direction of commercial software. And a non-enforced license sounds like a prelude to a bait'n'switch to me. I've seen in other lists that it is sometimes easier for a SysAdmin to buy software than it is for them to use free software, for various policy and procedure reasons. So having the option is good for that in addition to all the other reasons already covered. I'm not thrilled with limiting bandwidth or means of distribution (i.e. only BT if not "paid for") because we WANT as many people to use it as possible. We could lose a lot of mind share that way. I know I'd probably NOT bother with trying it out if I couldn't just use wget from an HTTP server... Non-binding votes and that good feeling of contributing something back are probably good reasons why people will buy certificates. Maybe they get a free 'blah' if they buy over some number of certs. or something. I like the non profit thing a lot. That's all I can think of for now, JP ------------------------------|:::======|-------------------------------- JP Vossen, CISSP |:::======| jp{at}jpsdomain{dot}org My Account, My Opinions |=========| http://www.jpsdomain.org/ ------------------------------|=========|-------------------------------- You used to have to reboot the Windows 9.x series every couple of days because it would crash. Now you have to reboot Windows 200x or XP every couple of days because of a patch. How is that better or more stable? From greg at runlevelzero.net Fri Nov 28 02:36:32 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 02:36:32 -0800 Subject: [cAos] Status update... Message-ID: <20031128103631.GA15415@runlevelzero.net> I just finished a semi polished network floppy installer, and the repositories finished building a bit ago (only has a several build errors left to fix). I will work on the errors tomorrow, and if all looks good (ie. repository has no major dependency issues) I will release the beta this weekend sometime. I will be working with Troy over the weekend to get some documentation and procedures posted on the net. If you want to help, let us know. Thanks, Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ From parsley at alfred.edu Thu Nov 20 07:18:21 2003 From: parsley at alfred.edu (David L. Parsley) Date: 20 Nov 2003 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: [cAos] List of RH9 packages in RHEL Message-ID: <1069341501.18615.22.camel@linuxjedi.org> Hi all, I did an rpm -q --queryformat "%{NAME} %{BUILDHOST} %{BUILDTIME} %{SIZE}\n" for all the packages in RHEL3 ES and RH9, then cat'ed, sort'ed and uniq -d'ed it all to come up with the attached list of 275 packages which appear to be identical in the two. Not sure how I'll use this info, yet. regards, David -- David L. Parsley Network Systems Administrator, Alfred University "If I have seen further, it is by standing on ye shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton -------------- next part -------------- a2ps acl ami am-utils apel-xemacs apmd aspell-da aspell-de aspell-es aspell-fr aspell-it aspell-nl aspell-no aspell-pt_BR aspell-pt aspell-sv attr autoconf213 autoconf automake autorun basesystem bg5ps bitmap-fonts-cjk bitmap-fonts blas bridge-utils byacc caching-nameserver cdecl cdparanoia-libs cdparanoia cipe compat-pwdb compat-slang cpio crontabs ctags cvs dbskkd-cdb ddd dejagnu desktop-backgrounds-basic desktop-backgrounds-extra dev86 diffstat docbook-style-dsssl dos2unix dtach dump eject ElectricFence emacspeak enscript fam-devel fam fbset fetchmail file filesystem findutils flex fontilus fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi fonts-ISO8859-2 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi fonts-KOI8-R ftp gawk gdbm gdbm-devel gettext gftp ghostscript-fonts gimp-data-extras gimp-print-cups gimp-print-plugin gimp-print gimp-print-utils Glide3 gnome-audio gnome-media gnomemeeting gnome-mime-data gnome-python2-bonobo gnome-python2-canvas gnome-python2 gnome-python2-gtkhtml2 gnome-user-docs gnupg gnuplot gperf gphoto2 grub gtk2-engines gzip h2ps hpoj htmlview hwcrypto imlib-devel imlib indent jadetex jisksp14 jisksp16-1990 kappa20 kdoc kernel-pcmcia-cs lapack lftp libacl-devel libacl libao-devel libao libart_lgpl-devel libart_lgpl libattr-devel libattr libcap-devel libcap libdbi-dbd-mysql libdbi libglade2-devel libglade2 libgsf libmng-devel libmng libmrproject libole2-devel libole2 libpng10 libpng-devel libpng libtermcap-devel libtermcap libungif-devel libungif libusb-devel libusb libuser libuser-devel libvorbis libvorbis-devel linuxdoc-tools lslk lsof ltrace m4 make man-pages-cs man-pages-da man-pages-de man-pages-es man-pages-it man-pages-ko man-pages-pl man-pages-ru mdadm memprof mikmod mkbootdisk mktemp mpage mtr mx MySQL-python ncompress nc nedit nhpf Omni Omni-foomatic openjade openmotif21 open passwd patch pax pciutils-devel pciutils pcre-devel pcre pdksh perl-DateManip perl-DBD-MySQL perl-DBD-Pg perl-DBI perl-Filter perl-HTML-Parser perl-HTML-Tagset perl-libwww-perl perl-libxml-enno perl-libxml-perl perl-Parse-Yapp perl-SGMLSpm perl-Time-HiRes perl-URI perl-XML-Dumper perl-XML-Encoding perl-XML-Grove perl-XML-Parser perl-XML-Twig pinfo pnm2ppa procmail psacct psgml pxe pyOpenSSL pyorbit pyxf86config PyXML rarpd rcs rdate rdesktop readline-devel readline rmt rootfiles rwho sane-frontends setserial sgml-common shapecfg skkinput sox splint squirrelmail star startup-notification-devel startup-notification swig symlinks sysklogd taipeifonts talk tcp_wrappers tcsh tetex-afm tetex tetex-dvips tetex-fonts tetex-latex tetex-xdvi tftp tftp-server tmpwatch tora ttfprint unix2dos unixODBC-kde unixODBC utempter uucp vconfig vixie-cron vlock Wnn6-SDK-devel Wnn6-SDK words Xaw3d xdelta xfig xhtml1-dtds xinitrc xloadimage xml-common xsane-gimp xsane xsri zip From herrold at owlriver.com Sat Nov 29 19:26:16 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:26:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cAos] Re: cAos] From another list -- The current fedora.us buildsystem and future directions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Jim Wildman wrote: > 5) When (x) number of builds have been done and they are identical, the > result is signed and released > > This replaces the 'dinosaur' of a single, massively secure system with > the 'rats' of many less secure systems on the premise that you can't > compromise all of them. chuckle -- Jim is echoing an article and concept he developed in an article he wrote some years ago. A copy is at his webiste at: http://www.rossberry.com/writings/physics.html and its section #3 -- I don't know that rats and dinosaurs co-existed in the past -- but the Open Source movement has permitted an 'ecology' of *nix 'rats' to flourish. The trick is harnessing them, to a build engine 'pumpkin' for the project. -- Russ Herrold From greg at runlevelzero.net Sun Nov 30 20:45:47 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:45:47 -0800 Subject: [cAos] announcement of caos GP-1 install success In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031201044547.GB5739@runlevelzero.net> On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 10:44:50PM -0500, R P Herrold told me: > I have completed a running install of caos GP-1 using the > 'cinch' single floppy image based installer. > > [root at dhcp220 root]# cat /etc/caos-release > cAos GP 1 (GP) > > The installer is just smart enough to use busybox, and start > a dhcp client and set a resolver. It also can retrieve a stage > two install image across the internet, and from there, > transfer a minimal install to a hard drive. Woops, transfers and runs the OS from RAM. I didn't want to touch a hard disk until after it was mounted as the /newroot. Unfortunately DNS resolution support is still not there, and I have to go back and recompile the initrd using uClib or similar micro libc. right now it is using the cAos glibc which is large. Once I do this, I will be able to throw in support for more network cards! ;) > It has enough tools to partition, and format, and makeswap, > and set up a proper /etc/fstab and so forth. > > - From there, there is a working 'yum' configuration, and > additional packages may be pulled; I am really thrilled with > this. Me too... this means that theoretically it can be used to simply install _any_ rpm based distro from a yum repo. > A cinch-README.txt exists at: > ftp://ftp.owlriver.com:/pub/local/ORC/buildfarm/cinch-README.txt Why did you mention that it is easier to pre-partition the desired hard disk? The installer will throw you into fdisk (parted support around the corner), and then let you select mount points? Did it not work correctly for ya? > Notice the absence of anaconda-images and redhat-logos ;) Great write up! Thanks! Greg -- Greg M. Kurtzer http://runlevelzero.net/ http://caosity.org/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/