From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Apr 21 00:56:37 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:56:37 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Hello... Message-ID: <20030421075637.GA30787@titan.runlevelzero.net> I now have about 55 RPMS ready to go. Most of them are pulled from the current RedHat 8 and 9 systems and simply recompiled with a new build name (cAos1.0) but this gives the framework of sources to allow nightly builds, and easy package modifications/upgrades. I am guessing that the first released version will only be a base development OS. Once that has been completed (probably about 200 RPMS including Gnome2) it will give us something to start building the other packages on. Work that _needs_ to be done in parallel is the front end to the world. This includes both the web presence, as well as a means for developers to include and maintain their packages to our build tree. This should be discussed at the next meeting (which brings me to my next . ). Recurring lunches... Date/Time/Place/frequency. Does anyone have any limitations or thoughts? I would suggest noon on Tuesdays or Thursdays at either Jupiter or Yu-Ying (very good Chinese). Maybe we should keep the same date, and rotate the locations..? BTW, does everyone like the name? It stands for 'Community Aware OS', and is pronounced like 'chaos'. Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From wsoyinka at lbl.gov Mon Apr 21 07:40:45 2003 From: wsoyinka at lbl.gov (wale) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 07:40:45 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Hello... References: <20030421075637.GA30787@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <3EA402ED.8050104@lbl.gov> Hey Greg, Great job. Sorry I havent been much use. In as much as I liked the old name, I think I like the sound of the new name even better than the previous one. But we may again have dissenting views with others?? But I dont like the "Aware" aspect. I will think of another relevant word that begins with an "A" and run it by you. Thanks, Wale ___________________________ Greg Kurtzer wrote: >I now have about 55 RPMS ready to go. Most of them are pulled from the current >RedHat 8 and 9 systems and simply recompiled with a new build name (cAos1.0) >but this gives the framework of sources to allow nightly builds, and easy >package modifications/upgrades. > >I am guessing that the first released version will only be a base development >OS. Once that has been completed (probably about 200 RPMS including Gnome2) it >will give us something to start building the other packages on. > >Work that _needs_ to be done in parallel is the front end to the world. This >includes both the web presence, as well as a means for developers to include >and maintain their packages to our build tree. This should be discussed at the >next meeting (which brings me to my next . ). > >Recurring lunches... Date/Time/Place/frequency. Does anyone have any >limitations or thoughts? I would suggest noon on Tuesdays or Thursdays at >either Jupiter or Yu-Ying (very good Chinese). Maybe we should keep the same >date, and rotate the locations..? > >BTW, does everyone like the name? It stands for 'Community Aware OS', and is >pronounced like 'chaos'. > >Greg > > From julia at runlevelzero.net Mon Apr 21 08:14:09 2003 From: julia at runlevelzero.net (Julia Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:14:09 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Hello... In-Reply-To: <3EA402ED.8050104@lbl.gov> Message-ID: community adopted? aucourant? (yea, theres a space in there, but does that fit or what?) axis? arisen just some thoughts... On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 07:40 AM, wale wrote: > Hey Greg, > > Great job. Sorry I havent been much use. > In as much as I liked the old name, I think I like the sound of the > new name even better than the previous one. But we may again have > dissenting views with others?? > > But I dont like the "Aware" aspect. I will think of another relevant > word that begins with an "A" and run it by you. > > Thanks, > Wale > > ___________________________ > > > Greg Kurtzer wrote: > >> I now have about 55 RPMS ready to go. Most of them are pulled from >> the current >> RedHat 8 and 9 systems and simply recompiled with a new build name >> (cAos1.0) >> but this gives the framework of sources to allow nightly builds, and >> easy package modifications/upgrades. >> >> I am guessing that the first released version will only be a base >> development >> OS. Once that has been completed (probably about 200 RPMS including >> Gnome2) it will give us something to start building the other >> packages on. >> >> Work that _needs_ to be done in parallel is the front end to the >> world. This >> includes both the web presence, as well as a means for developers to >> include >> and maintain their packages to our build tree. This should be >> discussed at the next meeting (which brings me to my next . ). >> >> Recurring lunches... Date/Time/Place/frequency. Does anyone have any >> limitations or thoughts? I would suggest noon on Tuesdays or >> Thursdays at either Jupiter or Yu-Ying (very good Chinese). Maybe we >> should keep the same >> date, and rotate the locations..? >> >> BTW, does everyone like the name? It stands for 'Community Aware OS', >> and is >> pronounced like 'chaos'. >> >> Greg >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos From greg at runlevelzero.net Mon Apr 21 08:20:41 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:20:41 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Hello... In-Reply-To: References: <3EA402ED.8050104@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <20030421152041.GA5908@titan.runlevelzero.net> I like "au courant" (yep, I had to look it up and for those too embarrassed to tell, here is what it says) "WordNet (r) 1.7" au courant adj : being up to particular standard or level especially in being up to date in knowledge; "kept abreast of the latest developments"; "constant revision keeps the book au courant"; "always au fait on the latest events"; "up on the news" syn: abreast of(p), au fait, up on(p) Yep, it is technically two words, but we can hyphenate or combine them... Greg On Mon, Apr 21, 2003 at 08:14:09AM -0700, Julia Kurtzer told me: > community > adopted? > aucourant? (yea, theres a space in there, but does that fit or what?) > axis? > arisen > > just some thoughts... > > On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 07:40 AM, wale wrote: > > >Hey Greg, > > > >Great job. Sorry I havent been much use. > >In as much as I liked the old name, I think I like the sound of the > >new name even better than the previous one. But we may again have > >dissenting views with others?? > > > >But I dont like the "Aware" aspect. I will think of another relevant > >word that begins with an "A" and run it by you. > > > >Thanks, > >Wale > > > >___________________________ > > > > > >Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > > >>I now have about 55 RPMS ready to go. Most of them are pulled from > >>the current > >>RedHat 8 and 9 systems and simply recompiled with a new build name > >>(cAos1.0) > >>but this gives the framework of sources to allow nightly builds, and > >>easy package modifications/upgrades. > >> > >>I am guessing that the first released version will only be a base > >>development > >>OS. Once that has been completed (probably about 200 RPMS including > >>Gnome2) it will give us something to start building the other > >>packages on. > >> > >>Work that _needs_ to be done in parallel is the front end to the > >>world. This > >>includes both the web presence, as well as a means for developers to > >>include > >>and maintain their packages to our build tree. This should be > >>discussed at the next meeting (which brings me to my next . ). > >> > >>Recurring lunches... Date/Time/Place/frequency. Does anyone have any > >>limitations or thoughts? I would suggest noon on Tuesdays or > >>Thursdays at either Jupiter or Yu-Ying (very good Chinese). Maybe we > >>should keep the same > >>date, and rotate the locations..? > >> > >>BTW, does everyone like the name? It stands for 'Community Aware OS', > >>and is > >>pronounced like 'chaos'. > >> > >>Greg > >> > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >cAos mailing list > >cAos at runlevelzero.net > >http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos > > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From geoff at galitz.org Mon Apr 21 09:05:09 2003 From: geoff at galitz.org (Geoff Galitz) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [cAos] Hello... In-Reply-To: References: <3EA402ED.8050104@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <1605.208.201.229.52.1050941109.squirrel@ssl.sonic.net> > community > adopted? > aucourant? (yea, theres a space in there, but does that fit or what?) > axis? > arisen > > just some thoughts... > How about amiable? -geoff From geoff at galitz.org Mon Apr 21 09:12:06 2003 From: geoff at galitz.org (Geoff Galitz) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [cAos] Hello... In-Reply-To: <20030421075637.GA30787@titan.runlevelzero.net> References: <20030421075637.GA30787@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <1644.208.201.229.52.1050941526.squirrel@ssl.sonic.net> > > Recurring lunches... Date/Time/Place/frequency. Does anyone have any > limitations or thoughts? I would suggest noon on Tuesdays or Thursdays > at either Jupiter or Yu-Ying (very good Chinese). Maybe we should keep > the same date, and rotate the locations..? Thursdays are a bit better for me. Rotating the location sounds good. Lets go to Yu-Ying this week. -geoff From greg at runlevelzero.net Wed Apr 23 14:50:38 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:50:38 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Web presence... Message-ID: <20030423215038.GA2670@titan.runlevelzero.net> This is an entry level start to the web presence: http://runlevelzero.net/greg/caos/ Also, don't forget that Lunch is tomorrow at Yu-Ying. Does everyone know where it is? Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From jekrous at lbl.gov Wed Apr 23 15:07:22 2003 From: jekrous at lbl.gov (Jay Krous) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:07:22 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Web presence... References: <20030423215038.GA2670@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <3EA70E9A.25A7E5E5@lbl.gov> Greg: Tomorrow is bring you daughter/son to work day. I'm bringing my sister (13) for the festivities so I should do lunch with the Daughter/Son group in the cafeteria. I'll have to miss the CAOS computer club (but only this week!) -Jay Greg Kurtzer wrote: > This is an entry level start to the web presence: > > http://runlevelzero.net/greg/caos/ > > Also, don't forget that Lunch is tomorrow at Yu-Ying. Does everyone know where > it is? > > Greg > -- > /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer > * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ > * > * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB > * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org > * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ > * > * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not > * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain > * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). > */ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jekrous.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 519 bytes Desc: Card for Jay Krous Url : http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20030423/9aae2d0d/attachment.vcf From greg at runlevelzero.net Thu Apr 24 11:06:46 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:06:46 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Lunch meetings... Message-ID: <20030424180646.GA13977@titan.runlevelzero.net> Sorry for the late notice, but it does not look like today many people will be able to make it. Also, Geoff and I talked and we think that Tuesday would be better then Thursdays. If there are any problems with this, please let me know. For now, plan on Tuesday at noon. The next meeting will be held at Yu-Ying on Shattuck near University Ave. Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From julia at runlevelzero.net Thu Apr 24 13:17:24 2003 From: julia at runlevelzero.net (Julia Kurtzer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:17:24 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Lunch meetings... In-Reply-To: <20030424180646.GA13977@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: then not the 1st tues of each month? On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 11:06 AM, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Sorry for the late notice, but it does not look like today many people > will be > able to make it. Also, Geoff and I talked and we think that Tuesday > would be > better then Thursdays. If there are any problems with this, please let > me > know. > > For now, plan on Tuesday at noon. The next meeting will be held at > Yu-Ying on > Shattuck near University Ave. > > Greg > -- > /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer > * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ > * > * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB > * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org > greg at rpm-grab.org > * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ > http://rpm-grab.org/ > * > * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! > Do not > * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival > (plain > * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). > */ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos > From wsoyinka at lbl.gov Thu Apr 24 13:16:41 2003 From: wsoyinka at lbl.gov (wale) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:16:41 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Lunch meetings... References: <20030424180646.GA13977@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <3EA84629.5030809@lbl.gov> Tuesday sounds better to me. Wale. _________________- Greg Kurtzer wrote: >Sorry for the late notice, but it does not look like today many people will be >able to make it. Also, Geoff and I talked and we think that Tuesday would be >better then Thursdays. If there are any problems with this, please let me >know. > >For now, plan on Tuesday at noon. The next meeting will be held at Yu-Ying on >Shattuck near University Ave. > >Greg > > From greg at runlevelzero.net Thu Apr 24 13:55:03 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:55:03 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Lunch meetings... In-Reply-To: References: <20030424180646.GA13977@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20030424205503.GA15538@titan.runlevelzero.net> On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 01:17:24PM -0700, Julia Kurtzer told me: > then not the 1st tues of each month? Good point... The LBNL LUG is the first Tuesday of each month. I think it is OK to either miss one a month, or reschedule one a month to a floating time. Thoughts? Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From jekrous at lbl.gov Thu Apr 24 14:58:22 2003 From: jekrous at lbl.gov (Jay Krous) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:58:22 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Lunch meetings... References: <20030424180646.GA13977@titan.runlevelzero.net> <20030424205503.GA15538@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <3EA85DFE.415DF220@lbl.gov> I think this is good, perhaps cAos folks can attend LUG since they have that time blanked out? The cAos meeting at the first of the month is at LUG? -Jay Greg Kurtzer wrote: > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 01:17:24PM -0700, Julia Kurtzer told me: > > then not the 1st tues of each month? > > Good point... The LBNL LUG is the first Tuesday of each month. I think it is > OK to either miss one a month, or reschedule one a month to a floating time. > > Thoughts? > Greg > -- > /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer > * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ > * > * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB > * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org > * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ > * > * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not > * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain > * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). > */ > _______________________________________________ > cAos mailing list > cAos at runlevelzero.net > http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jekrous.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 519 bytes Desc: Card for Jay Krous Url : http://lists.infiscale.org/pipermail/caos/attachments/20030424/5df33098/attachment.vcf From greg at runlevelzero.net Thu Apr 24 15:02:23 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:02:23 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Lunch meetings... In-Reply-To: <3EA85DFE.415DF220@lbl.gov> References: <20030424180646.GA13977@titan.runlevelzero.net> <20030424205503.GA15538@titan.runlevelzero.net> <3EA85DFE.415DF220@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <20030424220223.GA16081@titan.runlevelzero.net> Good for me. :) On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 02:58:22PM -0700, Jay Krous told me: > > I think this is good, perhaps cAos folks can attend LUG since they have that time > blanked out? The cAos meeting at the first of the month is at LUG? > > -Jay > > > Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 01:17:24PM -0700, Julia Kurtzer told me: > > > then not the 1st tues of each month? > > > > Good point... The LBNL LUG is the first Tuesday of each month. I think it is > > OK to either miss one a month, or reschedule one a month to a floating time. > > > > Thoughts? > > Greg > > -- > > /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer > > * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ > > * > > * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB > > * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org > > * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ > > * > > * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not > > * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain > > * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). > > */ > > _______________________________________________ > > cAos mailing list > > cAos at runlevelzero.net > > http://www.runlevelzero.net/mailman/listinfo/caos Content-Description: Card for Jay Krous -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Apr 29 10:50:05 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:50:05 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! Message-ID: <20030429175005.GA18890@titan.runlevelzero.net> Reminder that our weekly group meeting will be noon today at Yu-Ying Garden (also known as Mandarin Gardens) in Berkeley on Shatuck near University Ave. Topics will include database schema for the web application, and package security mechanisms as well as current status. See you then! Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From jekrous at lbl.gov Tue Apr 29 11:23:54 2003 From: jekrous at lbl.gov (Jay Krous) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:23:54 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: <20030429175005.GA18890@titan.runlevelzero.net> References: <20030429175005.GA18890@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <3EAEC33A.8080204@lbl.gov> Greg: I assume your taking the bus down? What time can I meet you at the bus stop? 11:40? -Jay Greg Kurtzer wrote: >Reminder that our weekly group meeting will be noon today at Yu-Ying Garden >(also known as Mandarin Gardens) in Berkeley on Shatuck near University Ave. > >Topics will include database schema for the web application, and package >security mechanisms as well as current status. > >See you then! >Greg > > -- Jack (Jay) E. Krous III Computer Systems Engineer Information Technologies & Services Division Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (510) 495-2522 -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQCNAzzkJbMAAAEEAL3rrvt6cMK39ndgl6iQafyoSNxu2bB+5JpzlsYjJy7P6hV0 tfCS8suqUxkhGq+M/SqPu7uFszivKvjm1h0NPquwDRf4lVv5SyDSQ+5PpzhndaYD 65y9f8PbNUIzd7jFwc8x8XvHqV4tRGJcaPVD4IW0lhD+bV8cV8kOfU5pxKKXAAUR tBtKYXkgS3JvdXMgPGpla3JvdXNAbGJsLmdvdj6JAJUDBRA85CWzyQ59TmnEopcB AV0TA/9AfeuBxNO30ptJBTaT2JX5XWlXkfDOVN+nlRRZLft6ERpMwTyrvoym8240 XUdLFgoY9RSUT1lkSBu1nkEMVcHBUNDuYufARTo4Ac0YdoKdXYFB6BYA8Kv10EDa 6Vha0TpF/7chKbzWV5XNVfEAtG1ID19NFeimac6+n2G/D07j9w===zH+i -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From herrold at owlriver.com Tue Apr 29 12:48:31 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: <20030429175005.GA18890@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > Reminder that our weekly group meeting will be noon today at Yu-Ying Garden > (also known as Mandarin Gardens) in Berkeley on Shatuck near University Ave. smile -- received and read at 15:46 local. I looked at cAos and am impressed with the design -- but this is the first post I've seen cross the list since I subscribed last week when you emailled me. There is a critical mass in things -- how may I help? -- Russ From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Apr 29 14:52:01 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:52:01 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: References: <20030429175005.GA18890@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20030429215201.GA19175@titan.runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 03:48:31PM -0400, R P Herrold told me: > smile -- received and read at 15:46 local. If in the Bay Area (CA) you are welcome to come to our weekly group meetings... Otherwise we will post some of the items that were discussed here. > I looked at cAos and am impressed with the design -- but this > is the first post I've seen cross the list since I subscribed > last week when you emailled me. There is a critical mass in > things -- how may I help? I actually have not advertised the project yet except to several people including you (just for the others, Russ is a very successful Open Source contributor and is maintainer of things like rpm.org). This is partly the reason for the lack of critical mass at this time. I do appreciate your offer to help, and I _will_ take you up on it! :) Here is a brief list of items talked about at the meeting: - Mascot name offering from James "Head Rat" :) - Potential need for a more descriptive mission statement - Justification section on the web site (James posed some good questions that need answering) - Base ideas on methods for allowing contributors, and contributor ranking - Creating a separate repository for EOL'ed RedHat systems using the same SRPMS that we use for cAos (RedHat 7.3 and 8.0) - Potential domain name (caosity.org). Any more thoughts? - Version scheme was explained - Nomenclature == %{name}-${version}-[cAos version].[increment].%{arch}.rpm (ie. openssh-3.6p1-cAos1.5.i686.rpm) - I need to let everyone know more readily where I am, and what still needs to be done (status). Here are some thoughts that I still have on what we need to resolve: - Logo/Mascot for site - Functionality on the site to do a minimal role of maintaining the packages - Build server - Develop the standard package specifications (maybe just state the standards that RedHat has built) - Create repositories I will post a list of RPMS that I have already built and what still needs to get built tonight. Also, I have just started the site, but I would like everyone to check it out and send thoughts, ideas, and complaints to the list. http://www.runlevelzero.net/greg/caos/index.php Thanks, Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From james at buszard-welcher.com Tue Apr 29 16:53:11 2003 From: james at buszard-welcher.com (James Buszard-Welcher) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: <97F4C8C4-7A9C-11D7-BDED-000393823AAC@runlevelzero.net> References: <97F4C8C4-7A9C-11D7-BDED-000393823AAC@runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <16047.4199.313826.642768@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Kurtzer writes: >>>>> "Russ" == R P Herrold [SNIP] Russ> I looked at cAos and am impressed with the design -- but this Russ> is the first post I've seen cross the list since I subscribed Russ> last week when you emailled me. There is a critical mass in Russ> things -- how may I help? Greg> I actually have not advertised the project yet except to Greg> several people including you (just for the others, Russ is a Greg> very successful Open Source contributor and is maintainer of Greg> things like rpm.org). This is partly the reason for the lack Greg> of critical mass at this time. I do appreciate your offer to Greg> help, and I _will_ take you up on it! :) Greg> Here is a brief list of items talked about at the meeting: [SNIP] Greg> - Potential need for a more descriptive mission statement Greg> - Justification section on the web site (James posed some good Greg> questions that need answering) Ok... I think I had an "action item" to bring up my questions and these bullet items seem appropriate. My point was that we need define precisely the problem we are trying to solve, and how that differentiates us from other the distributions. In other words, "justify your existence". I think I illustrated this with the example that the problem I was interested in solving was "I use Red Hat, but their support model is going to cause me problems trying to keep systems secure after year." This was different than the problem I presumed that Greg was trying to solve which was "there is no non-commercial Linux distribution for the masses". While there are many possible solutions to my problem statement, the only real solution to Greg's was to create a new distro. I was the "voice of dissent" questioning the need for another distro because the problem I want to solve is different. So, most importantly, I feel we need an "elevator speech" stating the problem we want to solve and how we are going to solve it. That leaves some other questions-to-be-answered-in-detail (as I see it) for which we might want to have some predetermined answers: o Why not Red Hat? (what's wrong with their support policy, etc.) o Why not Debian? (it's a "community" OS, right??) o Why start a new distro instead of trying to find a solution with one of the other groups that is working on something like this? o Why would people trust us more than Red Hat? ("trust" our distro is not hacked, "trust" us to build it right, "trust" the project not to fold in a year or two...) o Given a clear statement of the problem we want to solve, maybe there is some easy low-hanging fruit we can persue before going to the lengths of creating a new Linux distribution. Greg> Here are some thoughts that I still have on what we need to Greg> resolve: Greg> - Logo/Mascot for site - Functionality on the site to do Greg> a minimal role of maintaining the packages - Build server - Greg> Develop the standard package specifications (maybe just Greg> state the standards that RedHat has built) - Create Greg> repositories These steps imply that out goal is to build a new Linux distribution and that we need to recruit new members and start cranking out rpms. I just think that will be easy with out the "justify your existence" components and statement of goals, or at least a description of what cAos is going to look like and how it will work and why it will be better than the other Linuxes. James From james at buszard-welcher.com Tue Apr 29 17:33:50 2003 From: james at buszard-welcher.com (James Buszard-Welcher) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [cAos] Food for Thought: New Distros Message-ID: <16047.6638.735680.365231@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> An article posted today at OS News that showed up on Slashdot today seems trenchant to our discussions: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3431 James From herrold at owlriver.com Tue Apr 29 20:15:54 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: <20030429215201.GA19175@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > - Justification section on the web site (James posed some good questions > that need answering) oohhh -- James? I'll look for a summary, so they may be worked through. > - Base ideas on methods for allowing contributors, and contributor ranking This starts with an individual starting to 'Know thyself' -- packaging, building, debugging, integrating, QA'ing, doco'ing are all activities which one can do to do skill development and acquisition. I don't know that 'ranking' is just the term I would use, for it seems, some one is 'lesser'. (This is really spooky -- a midwesterner, thinking and acting Calofirnia New Age touchie-feely ). Traditionally, unix folk know of, but are shy about self-proclaimation in, the Unix skills heirarchy http://www2.educ.umu.se/~bjorn/unix/wizard.html see contra (much less reticent): http://gnu.kldp.org/cb/hacker-howto/unix-faq.loginataka.html each good for a smile. > - Creating a separate repository for EOL'ed RedHat systems using the same > SRPMS that we use for cAos (RedHat 7.3 and 8.0) disclaimer: Greg knows I sell such, and have for years to a commercial clientele. http://www.owlriver.com/support/#rheol > - Potential domain name (caosity.org). Any more thoughts? I do not know the naming history, but took it as either variant for Chaos -- with no good 'h' word coming to mind for an acronym -- or Kaos -- the incompentent bad guys on the Get Smart sitcom. > - Version scheme was explained > - Nomenclature == %{name}-${version}-[cAos version].[increment].%{arch}.rpm > (ie. openssh-3.6p1-cAos1.5.i686.rpm) Just a heads up -- Jeff Johnson has articulated on rpm list, and Red Hat release archives have begun to carry a visible Epoch when non-null. Icky, and sad, but probably needful as RPM-packaged *nix spreads, to permit automated dependency resolution with yum , or apt, or even up2date . It becomes: %{name}-${epoch}-${version}-[cAos version].[increment].%{arch}.rpm I take it, [cAos version].[increment] == ${release} field. It turns out with the rpmvercmp logic, that it is helpful to articulate some other things in the "EVR" - epoch version release tuplet: 0-0.0.20030429-1caosRHL7x is good for branding a version-release pair as a CVS variant, first packaging in cAos, indtnded for RHL 7x binary compatability. It can cleanly upgrade with automated tools, if a beta candidate is then named, omitting one set of ".0" in the version field: 0-0.1.0-1caosRHL7x And a Release gets a number greater than 1 0-1.0-1caosRHL7x There are pathological variations out there, and developers who invent naming approaches which cannot be reconciled to autmoated tools -- but they are rare. Unfortunately 'perl' was one needing 'epoch; for a cure. > - Develop the standard package specifications (maybe just state the > standards that RedHat has built) heh -- there is a comment within the last couple weeks from a senior Red Hat developer to the effect that if there are N packagers and developers at Red Hat, there are at least N+1 "standards". Formal RH announced "standard package specifications" are as rare as snipes on a Cub Scout camping trip. I have some items linked off of: http://www.owlriver.com/projects/packaging/ and will add more as I write OSI license code for them. > - Create repositories > > I will post a list of RPMS that I have already built and what still needs to > get built tonight. Don't re-invent the wheel. My GPL'd scriptlet at: ftp://ftp.owlriver.com/pub/local/ORC/packaging/ buildFTPsummary.sh walks an FTP archive, finding SRPMs, and building a drop in body element which is the 'meat' of: http://www.owlriver.com/projects/ORC/ on an automated basis. Best regards, - -- Russ Herrold -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPq8/8GS3OKZ7+5i5AQFdLAP7Bu7yzznfqCMWmrcvUev32fGEokNVGx/w 3R6I/PGVJkfAi1NvdoeH/V7MTiaRRRRxz85xWjIDHGElEMhR3SdhsMDMuMbLOBAx 2PoYbSS0C56zZHkTU0XZYu/qAsYD/iJ9vgJ+Jdv9xrC8+N4n11CGP42Gn9JbPAr3 f77zaWIfHnA= =pX13 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Apr 29 21:22:52 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:22:52 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: References: <20030429215201.GA19175@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: <20030430042252.GA21652@titan.runlevelzero.net> On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 11:15:54PM -0400, R P Herrold told me: > http://www2.educ.umu.se/~bjorn/unix/wizard.html > see contra (much less reticent): > http://gnu.kldp.org/cb/hacker-howto/unix-faq.loginataka.html > each good for a smile. Very good links! Can't everyone fix bugs by patching binaries? > disclaimer: Greg knows I sell such, and have for years to a > commercial clientele. > http://www.owlriver.com/support/#rheol I knew you sold OS support. Do you sell updates via a subscription service? > I do not know the naming history, but took it as either > variant for Chaos -- with no good 'h' word coming to mind for > an acronym -- or Kaos -- the incompentent bad guys on the Get > Smart sitcom. I am sure we can reverse-cronym an 'h', but I saw it as non-necessary. The choices that I see for site names are: caosity.org caos-ity.org caos-linux.org caosnix.org Does anyone have any other ideas (using the cAos base)? > Just a heads up -- Jeff Johnson has articulated on rpm list, > and Red Hat release archives have begun to carry a visible > Epoch when non-null. Icky, and sad, but probably needful as > RPM-packaged *nix spreads, to permit automated dependency > resolution with yum , or apt, or even up2date . It > becomes: > %{name}-${epoch}-${version}-[cAos version].[increment].%{arch}.rpm > I take it, [cAos version].[increment] == ${release} field. 1) I guess GRAB will have to have a bit of rewrite to expect a non-mandatory field in the name... If people can just use halfway version nomenclature this would not be an issue!!! Errrr. 2) Yes, you are right, [cAos version].[increment] == ${release} where [increment] is the OS security level as defined at http://www.runlevelzero.net/greg/caos/information.php. > It turns out with the rpmvercmp logic, that it is helpful to > articulate some other things in the "EVR" - epoch version > release tuplet: > 0-0.0.20030429-1caosRHL7x is good for branding a > version-release pair as a CVS variant, first packaging in > cAos, indtnded for RHL 7x binary compatability. It can > cleanly upgrade with automated tools, if a beta candidate is > then named, omitting one set of ".0" in the version field: > 0-0.1.0-1caosRHL7x > And a Release gets a number greater than 1 > 0-1.0-1caosRHL7x Doesn't that make the first field (^0) the EPOCH? The scheme makes sense, but I still don't like the idea of using the EPOCH. > There are pathological variations out there, and developers > who invent naming approaches which cannot be reconciled to > autmoated tools -- but they are rare. Those developers should be banned from distributing files! Can't we just give them a negative rank? :) > Unfortunately 'perl' was one needing 'epoch; for a cure. GRAB's algorithm is pretty good, but you are right that there are just some things that it can't handle (like packagers inventing their own version rules). > heh -- there is a comment within the last couple weeks from a > senior Red Hat developer to the effect that if there are N > packagers and developers at Red Hat, there are at least N+1 > "standards". Formal RH announced "standard package > specifications" are as rare as snipes on a Cub Scout camping > trip. I once caught a Snipe once, <<------THIS BIG------>> !! > Don't re-invent the wheel. Never... http://altruistic.lbl.gov/ is already spinning. Chances are that we will house the stuff there and at a repository at UCB. > My GPL'd scriptlet at: > ftp://ftp.owlriver.com/pub/local/ORC/packaging/ > buildFTPsummary.sh > walks an FTP archive, finding SRPMs, and building a drop in > body element which is the 'meat' of: > http://www.owlriver.com/projects/ORC/ > on an automated basis. Very nice! Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */ From herrold at owlriver.com Tue Apr 29 22:00:34 2003 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: <20030430042252.GA21652@titan.runlevelzero.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Greg Kurtzer wrote: > > disclaimer: Greg knows I sell such, and have for years to a > > commercial clientele. > > http://www.owlriver.com/support/#rheol > > I knew you sold OS support. Do you sell updates via a subscription service? yes, sure do, with whatever high end SLA you need, delivered across vpn or CD like KRUD, as far back as you want to go, on RHL -- autorpm, or yum as application tool, with 'special sauce' to work out dependencies -- custom packages and backporting as needed Crufty end users who want their old version forever (or want it on ppc. mips, alpha, sparc) can have it if they are willing to pay for the service. Soon for ia64 and the AMD variant. > 1) I guess GRAB will have to have a bit of rewrite to expect a non-mandatory > field in the name... If people can just use halfway version nomenclature this > would not be an issue!!! Errrr. of course, you _know_ accurate version detection can NEVER be relied upon merely on external file names ... > 2) Yes, you are right, [cAos version].[increment] == ${release} where > [increment] is the OS security level as defined at > http://www.runlevelzero.net/greg/caos/information.php. > > > It turns out with the rpmvercmp logic, that it is helpful to > > articulate some other things in the "EVR" - epoch version > > release tuplet: > > 0-0.0.20030429-1caosRHL7x is good for branding a > > version-release pair as a CVS variant, first packaging in > > cAos, indtnded for RHL 7x binary compatability. It can > > cleanly upgrade with automated tools, if a beta candidate is > > then named, omitting one set of ".0" in the version field: > > 0-0.1.0-1caosRHL7x > > And a Release gets a number greater than 1 > > 0-1.0-1caosRHL7x > > Doesn't that make the first field (^0) the EPOCH? The scheme makes sense, but > I still don't like the idea of using the EPOCH. yes -- EVR puts Epoch first -- it has to for lexical sensibility. No-one likes it -- but things are too crufty and wild west out there to avoid it. Remember that you can only guess, but not rely on external naming lexical parsing. example: foo-1.23-4.i386.rpm might also be (epoch=0, old style) OR (epoch=null, old style) the null and zero epoch were not previously distinguished. foo-0-1.23-4.i386.rpm is unambiguous. Just another heads up, and JBJ has mentioned but not stressed it -- there is a new 'coloration' attribute on binaries to worry about as well; but this is not the place for _that_ snake's nest -- ask RH rpm-list. > > There are pathological variations out there, and developers > > who invent naming approaches which cannot be reconciled to > > autmoated tools -- but they are rare. > > Those developers should be banned from distributing files! Can't we just give > them a negative rank? :) > > > Unfortunately 'perl' was one needing 'epoch; for a cure. ... blacklisting Larry Wall et al., might prove intersting -- R From greg at runlevelzero.net Tue Apr 29 22:13:32 2003 From: greg at runlevelzero.net (Greg Kurtzer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:13:32 -0700 Subject: [cAos] Meeting today! In-Reply-To: <16047.4199.313826.642768@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> References: <97F4C8C4-7A9C-11D7-BDED-000393823AAC@runlevelzero.net> <16047.4199.313826.642768@oscar.buszard-welcher.com> Message-ID: <20030430051332.GB21652@titan.runlevelzero.net> Wow... Your scaring me! Comments in line: On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 04:53:11PM -0700, James Buszard-Welcher told me: > My point was that we need define precisely the problem we are > trying to solve, and how that differentiates us from other the > distributions. In other words, "justify your existence". I agree. Thanks for re-iterating this. > I think I illustrated this with the example that the problem I was > interested in solving was "I use Red Hat, but their support model is going > to cause me problems trying to keep systems secure after year." This was > different than the problem I presumed that Greg was trying to solve which > was "there is no non-commercial Linux distribution for the masses". Hrmm... When I started with the site, I did not want to come out of the ring sounding like I was canning on any of the other solutions out there. I specifically worded it to sound non-controversial. Also, I did not want to justify our existence by someone else's decisions. Yes, this will be an alternative for people to use if their currently implemented commercial distro has problems, but we are here simply because it is needed in the community. Maybe I need to rethink the wording, but those are my thoughts. > While there are many possible solutions to my problem statement, the only > real solution to Greg's was to create a new distro. I was the "voice of > dissent" questioning the need for another distro because the problem I want > to solve is different. Hrmm... And I am sure many others throughout the community feel the same. It would be good to address these needs in words on the site even if the best solution is not cAos. > So, most importantly, I feel we need an "elevator speech" stating the > problem we want to solve and how we are going to solve it. > > That leaves some other questions-to-be-answered-in-detail (as I see it) > for which we might want to have some predetermined answers: > > o Why not Red Hat? (what's wrong with their support policy, etc.) > > o Why not Debian? (it's a "community" OS, right??) This is hard for me to do because as I mentioned, I don't play politics by slandering others. I rather just focus on what we are doing, and make it universally a great solution. However these questions will be raised by users, so we should post something on it. My only requirement is that we will not talk negatively about anyone except ourselves. :) I believe that careful word smithing can do this well. > o Why start a new distro instead of trying to find a solution with > one of the other groups that is working on something like this? Fedora is the only project that I know of (besides Debian) that is trying to create a true community based solution. They are using RedHat as the base OS, and not positioning or farseeing it at a distribution alternative (from what I gather from their docs). It is very possible that once we get going we can use many of their packages in the extended OS. Are there any others? > o Why would people trust us more than Red Hat? ("trust" our distro > is not hacked, "trust" us to build it right, "trust" the project > not to fold in a year or two...) This can be handled more by a general statement about trusting any Open Source project rather then a proprietary solution with several key bullets: - If there are users, the community will develop and support - Community requests are heard and taken seriously - Bugs can be fixed by a large number of people - Once it is out there, nobody can take it away - User support is superior I can go on, but I think this can get us going... > o Given a clear statement of the problem we want to solve, maybe there > is some easy low-hanging fruit we can pursue before going to the > lengths of creating a new Linux distribution. We can defiantly re-evaluate that. I should mention that when I first started thinking of this, I was not in support of this solution. I went about installing all sorts of other distributions, and lots of google'ing looking for solutions. Slowly it became apparent to me that this solution was just not being represented in the community. > These steps imply that out goal is to build a new Linux distribution > and that we need to recruit new members and start cranking out rpms. Well, that is _my_ goal! :) > I just think that will be easy with out the "justify your existence" > components and statement of goals, or at least a description of what > cAos is going to look like and how it will work and why it will be > better than the other Linuxes. OK, if someone wants to volunteer for this great otherwise I will draft an outline in the next several days. Thanks for your thoughts! Greg -- /* Greg Kurtzer, Open Source Developer * http://runlevelzero.net/greg/ * * RunLevelZero.net Warewulf GRAB * greg at runlevelzero.net greg at warewulf-cluster.org greg at rpm-grab.org * http://runlevelzero.net/ http://warewulf-cluster.org/ http://rpm-grab.org/ * * Do not add my E-mail or contact info to ANY M$ Outlook addressbook! Do not * send me ANY M$ Office documents or it will be deleted upon arrival (plain * text, OpenOffice.org format, and RTF welcomed). */